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The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

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Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#11

Post by tyingq »

rconti wrote: post #8
Swizec wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad is a mechanical engineer who loves cars. I spent my youth listening to him lamenting the fact that modern cara have too many electronics and DIY protections. That you can't even make an oil change without also notifying the computer, the interface for which is proprietary and only sold to licensed dealers, or the car would refuse to run because it would think its oil is bad. He reminisced about the good old da…

[citation needed] There is no vehicle on the market (that I know of) which will refuse to run without an oil change. On my 17 year old BMW and 2 year old VW, the oil service indicator is just a reminder, a courtesy. On the BMW I can reset it with a paper clip. On the VW I can reset it on the screen on the dash. Honestly, most of the major things that go wrong with cars these days are still mechanical, and are still f…

You haven't experienced it, but this sort of thing does exist.

Want to replace your relatively simple Volvo throttle body with a junkyard pull? Nope, it's programmed to your VIN.

Similar for many radios. And the notoriously glitchy matrix display on the dash cluster of 90s BMW's.

Also, PCM and body control modules, and more I've forgotten.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#12

Post by grogenaut »

tyingq wrote: post #11
rconti wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] There is no vehicle on the market (that I know of) which will refuse to run without an oil change. On my 17 year old BMW and 2 year old VW, the oil service indicator is just a reminder, a courtesy. On the BMW I can reset it with a paper clip. On the VW I can reset it on the screen on the dash. Honestly, most of the major things that go wrong with cars these days are still mechanical, and are still f…

You haven't experienced it, but this sort of thing does exist. Want to replace your relatively simple Volvo throttle body with a junkyard pull? Nope, it's programmed to your VIN. Similar for many radios. And the notoriously glitchy matrix display on the dash cluster of 90s BMW's. Also, PCM and body control modules, and more I've forgotten.

none of the things you said are an oil change.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#13

Post by hwillis »

vvanders wrote: post #7

> Kluthe, for example, uses pig manure to power his tractor, which requires engine modifications that would likely violate John Deere's terms of service on newer machines. > "I take the hog waste and run it through an anaerobic digester and I've learned to compress the methane," he said. "I run an 80 percent methane in my Chevy Diesel Pickup and I run 90 percent methane in my tractor. And they both purr. I take a lot…

Great point. This isn't like biodiesel or ethanol, where the co2 would end up in the air anyway. A methane generator actively creates a carbon form that is significantly worse for the environment.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#14

Post by icantdrive55 »

rconti wrote: post #8
Swizec wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad is a mechanical engineer who loves cars. I spent my youth listening to him lamenting the fact that modern cara have too many electronics and DIY protections. That you can't even make an oil change without also notifying the computer, the interface for which is proprietary and only sold to licensed dealers, or the car would refuse to run because it would think its oil is bad. He reminisced about the good old da…

[citation needed] There is no vehicle on the market (that I know of) which will refuse to run without an oil change. On my 17 year old BMW and 2 year old VW, the oil service indicator is just a reminder, a courtesy. On the BMW I can reset it with a paper clip. On the VW I can reset it on the screen on the dash. Honestly, most of the major things that go wrong with cars these days are still mechanical, and are still f…

I completely agree, until you have a problem that requires you hook a scan tool up to that diagnostic link.

I have a snap-on mt2500, and two other generic scan tools. I can get hard codes on most vechicles. I can't get certain codes or repair information on many newer vechicles.

The problem arises when you have an intermittent problem, and need access into those propriatiatry systems. The dealerships get software updates, but automotive companies are not required to inform anyone that there's been an change to the existing software.

In states like CA, which are very strict with emissions; failing a smog check because you have on old version of firmware is beyond frustrating. Most people have no idea that the reason they failed is due to an older software. Most smog shops don't even have information the dealerships have. It's a lot of trial and error to get that vechicle to pass those smog checks. It's not right. It should violate The Sherman Anti-Trust Act?

There are many indepent Auto Shops that are hobbled.

They need access to at least the dealership scan tool. I believe Massachusetts is the only state that enacted a "Right to Repair" law. If you live in that state, you can buy expensive dealership repair manuals, and get the opportunity to spend thousands on their scan tools. Just to find out what system/lazy sensor/etc. is broken in a vechicle you bought?

Having to take you vechicle to only the dealership is---un-American?

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#15

Post by tyingq »

grogenaut wrote: post #12
tyingq wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't experienced it, but this sort of thing does exist. Want to replace your relatively simple Volvo throttle body with a junkyard pull? Nope, it's programmed to your VIN. Similar for many radios. And the notoriously glitchy matrix display on the dash cluster of 90s BMW's. Also, PCM and body control modules, and more I've forgotten.

none of the things you said are an oil change.

Nope, you're right. Was responding to "never once been stymied by a computer" preceded by a list of things that were also not oil changes.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#16

Post by weberc2 »

hamandcheese wrote: post #4

How is this practice even legal? Could auto manafuctirers do the same thing? I'm sure they discourage aftermarket programming and whatnot, but using DRM to prevent DIY repairs is bringing things to a whole new level.

Former John Deere employee here. The company isn't being spiteful or doing this to corner the repair market; they do it to avoid legal liability and fraudulent warrantee claims. They're an extremely risk-averse company.

EDIT: By the way, I favor owner's rights (my family farms with Deere equipment, and I think there's tons of mutual advantage in open sourcing software in this case specifically and in general), but as is often the case, the "greedy corporate oppressor" narrative is too simple.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#17

Post by tyingq »

hwillis wrote: post #13
vvanders wrote: post #7

> Kluthe, for example, uses pig manure to power his tractor, which requires engine modifications that would likely violate John Deere's terms of service on newer machines. > "I take the hog waste and run it through an anaerobic digester and I've learned to compress the methane," he said. "I run an 80 percent methane in my Chevy Diesel Pickup and I run 90 percent methane in my tractor. And they both purr. I take a lot…

Great point. This isn't like biodiesel or ethanol, where the co2 would end up in the air anyway. A methane generator actively creates a carbon form that is significantly worse for the environment.

I understand this doesn't affect EPA laws, but most US states exempt farm vehicles, even things like pickup​ trucks (that can legally drive on roads even) from state emissions testing.

They also allow exemptions to use untaxed fuel in them, etc.

Basically, there's a sort of exemption ecosystem that might have farmers thinking they are free to do whatever they want around fuel and emissions. Which is only partially true...

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#18

Post by CuddleMuffin »

thecolorblue wrote: post #3

I have generally thought that any black market like this one is a sign of an opportunity for a better product. Is this universally the case? Are there black markets where there is not an opportunity for disruption?

Sometimes black markets are simply a way to get a product cheaper (or free) but the best way to beat the market is a better product and not lawyers. I used to be a heavy user of pirated PC games but have stopped completely now that game developers actively update games for years after their release. Probably a pain for the developers but the shift has lead to much better products and gives a strong incentive to legally purchase products without resorting to "strong arming" your customers.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#19

Post by Swizec »

rconti wrote: post #8
Swizec wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad is a mechanical engineer who loves cars. I spent my youth listening to him lamenting the fact that modern cara have too many electronics and DIY protections. That you can't even make an oil change without also notifying the computer, the interface for which is proprietary and only sold to licensed dealers, or the car would refuse to run because it would think its oil is bad. He reminisced about the good old da…

[citation needed] There is no vehicle on the market (that I know of) which will refuse to run without an oil change. On my 17 year old BMW and 2 year old VW, the oil service indicator is just a reminder, a courtesy. On the BMW I can reset it with a paper clip. On the VW I can reset it on the screen on the dash. Honestly, most of the major things that go wrong with cars these days are still mechanical, and are still f…

> [citation needed]

I'm sure it was hyperbole to an extent. I don't know enough about the practice of fixing cars to know where the line lies. I just know what he said.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#20

Post by Overtonwindow »

vvanders wrote: post #7

> Kluthe, for example, uses pig manure to power his tractor, which requires engine modifications that would likely violate John Deere's terms of service on newer machines. > "I take the hog waste and run it through an anaerobic digester and I've learned to compress the methane," he said. "I run an 80 percent methane in my Chevy Diesel Pickup and I run 90 percent methane in my tractor. And they both purr. I take a lot…

That IS a great point. Reminds me of coal rolling mods on trucks.
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