Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

qz.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 484 posts

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#161

Post by lsaferite »

Dayshine wrote: post #89
lsaferite wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. Now imagine you are getting twice as much after taxes for the same work but without benefits. Would you still be as happy? Hell, even 50% more. And you are spreading the work across multiple clients so any one client 'firing' you is suddenly not a huge thing since your income is distributed across multiple clients. Sure, you don't get paid benefits, but you get higher income and the ability to work for multiple c…

>so any one client 'firing' you is suddenly not a huge thing With 3 months notice and strong union protection (public sector) it already isn't. I'd much rather work for a single excellent organisation where I know I'm doing good than many who can't hold on to good staff and need contractors.

I'd love those protections personally, but I have no such luck.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#162

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

fs111 wrote: post #92
lsaferite wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. Now imagine you are getting twice as much after taxes for the same work but without benefits. Would you still be as happy? Hell, even 50% more. And you are spreading the work across multiple clients so any one client 'firing' you is suddenly not a huge thing since your income is distributed across multiple clients. Sure, you don't get paid benefits, but you get higher income and the ability to work for multiple c…

Well that all sounds nice and dandy, but imagine you don't find new clients or they don't pay your invoices or you get seriously sick or something in your private life needs all your attention. Employment isn't so bad in those cases.

That's my struggle with this - it feels like living in constant fear of something going awry and a bout of extreme anxiety every 6-12 months.

I'll take my impostor syndrome and constant medium-high anxiety thank you very much.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#163

Post by JoshTriplett »

soverance wrote: post #36
uniclaude wrote: post #8

People keep complaining about how hard and expensive it is to attract top talent. This kind of measure is exactly how you do it. Provide an environment where employees feel trusted and empowered, pay market rate, screen properly instead of having applicants jump through hoops, and you won't have much trouble hiring. Kudos to github for this, I'm impressed!

For real. I am an indie game dev who recently released his first big game on Steam. Just a week or two ago I had a prospective company tell me that, in order to hire me, I would need to sell them the entirety of my personally-developed IP and dissolve my interest in my own company. Needless to say, I decided against that job.

> Just a week or two ago I had a prospective company tell me that, in order to hire me, I would need to sell them the entirety of my personally-developed IP and dissolve my interest in my own company.

That's unusually awful for an employment agreement. Most employment agreements claim everything developed by the employee on company time and resources, and many claim everything developed while employed, but this is the first time I've ever heard of an employment agreement demanding all past work. Good call on just leaving; not worth even negotiating with a company that tries to pull a stunt like that.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#164

Post by Orangeair »

Wow, that's really nice. At Google, they basically told us, "There's the standard IP rule where you own anything that you work on in your own time that doesn't compete with our business... Of course we pretty much do everything, so good luck finding something that we can't claim."

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#165

Post by 6stringmerc »

matthewmcg wrote: post #137

I work at a large law firm that represents a lot of software companies. Our standard employee agreement forms have the usual default (company owns everything you create with its resources or that relates to the scope of your employment). This default has always amused me because lawyers never sign these kinds of agreements with their own law firms . We spend most of our time writing contracts, memos, and other bits o…

Wow, that's...really something. I do have a bit of a quibble with one of your assertions though:

>It would not even be possible to ascertain the original authorship of most form contracts that cross my desk.

I highly doubt this statement is true if given Documents X, Y, Z et al are given stringent, professional forensic examination for remnants of markings. Maybe not every single one, sure, but enough in a Universe A of legal examination would, I firmly believe, uncover quite a bit more than meets the eye.

My point is that what you've noted is not an "IP-free zone" it's simply an un-tapped market for "fiscal compensation by way of derivative IP torts" - once the financial motivation is strong enough and there's evidence that can be garnered to show willful infringement...IP rights don't just go away because nobody is pursuing them.

If the Prenda Law fiasco can serve as a Gutter Dweller example of IP enforcement, this is a much more clear cut, deep pocketed scenario that should give every single law firm pause. As much as I'm entertained by cannibalistic feeding frenzy behavior, Law Firm Representing Law Firm(s) vs. Law Firm(s), would, no doubt, be a basic drain on an already over-burdened legal system.

TL, DR: Never underestimate the temptation for tort cases when there's a large pile of money at stake

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#166

Post by lsaferite »

fs111 wrote: post #92
lsaferite wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. Now imagine you are getting twice as much after taxes for the same work but without benefits. Would you still be as happy? Hell, even 50% more. And you are spreading the work across multiple clients so any one client 'firing' you is suddenly not a huge thing since your income is distributed across multiple clients. Sure, you don't get paid benefits, but you get higher income and the ability to work for multiple c…

Well that all sounds nice and dandy, but imagine you don't find new clients or they don't pay your invoices or you get seriously sick or something in your private life needs all your attention. Employment isn't so bad in those cases.

Yes, you have to get new clients, that is always a risk. Proper structuring of payment schedules and IP transfer helps with invoice payment. Also, having long-term relationships with clients also helps there. I would hope you carry some sort of insurance in the case of life taking a sudden left-turn, but perhaps you don't. Ideally you financially plan enough to cover something like that.

I've been a contractor as several points in my life and loved it mostly. It is sometimes stressful making sure everything is on track, but the freedom of not depending on any one client and the difference in income that allowed me to work less If I wanted was great.

I currently work as an employee and also like the benefits it provides and the people I work with. But, I also know that ultimately companies now days have very little loyalty so my mind never lets me think of being an employee as some absolute guarantee of stability.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#167

Post by lsaferite »

AIMunchkin wrote: post #142
lsaferite wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. Now imagine you are getting twice as much after taxes for the same work but without benefits. Would you still be as happy? Hell, even 50% more. And you are spreading the work across multiple clients so any one client 'firing' you is suddenly not a huge thing since your income is distributed across multiple clients. Sure, you don't get paid benefits, but you get higher income and the ability to work for multiple c…

"so any one client 'firing' you is suddenly not a huge thing since your income is distributed across multiple clients" For whom you have to spend roughly 1/3 of your time on collection because companies don't get rich writing a lot of checks. If it fits your psyche, great. Not everyone is like you.

As I said in another comment, part of that is covered by proper payment structuring and IP transfer provisions while the rest is covered by having long-term clients that you have a good relationship with.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#168

Post by eeZah7Ux »

superbatfish wrote: post #126

Look, this is nice for github employees, but it's worth noting that this is not an easy decision for all companies to make. We (developers) aren't like factory workers cranking out widgets by the hour. We're paid to think deeply about challenging problems. For me, that means chewing on a problem for a long time, often when I'm not at work. Honestly, when a problem is challenging, I can't get it out of my mind. I'm th…

> But if we don't acknowledge the basic facts of the situation, then we aren't negotiating in good faith.

Don't put the bad faith on the side of the employees when the contract goes "we own everything you do while employed, anywhere, anytime and forever".

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#169

Post by charlesdm »

cheez wrote: post #69
soverance wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For real. I am an indie game dev who recently released his first big game on Steam. Just a week or two ago I had a prospective company tell me that, in order to hire me, I would need to sell them the entirety of my personally-developed IP and dissolve my interest in my own company. Needless to say, I decided against that job.

Yep. I was hired at a major hedge fund. Disclosed my interest in various companies ahead of time. Got to the hedge fund. Was told that I had to dissolve the interest. Quit job. Everyone pissed. I had other reasons to quit which had nothing to do with the job itself (I loved it), but that was a major one. I get paid more, per hour, from my businesses than any job I've had so far.

Out of interest, which types of companies did you own stakes in?

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#170

Post by yellowapple »

tajen wrote: post #158
matthewmcg wrote: post #137

I work at a large law firm that represents a lot of software companies. Our standard employee agreement forms have the usual default (company owns everything you create with its resources or that relates to the scope of your employment). This default has always amused me because lawyers never sign these kinds of agreements with their own law firms . We spend most of our time writing contracts, memos, and other bits o…

You are answering a big question of mine: "If I launch a PAAS product, am I allowed to copy Heroku's terms of use?". Seems like it's covered by copyright but it's IP-free zone, although "IANAL"... On the other hand, it would be a headache if contracts were covered by copyright: If your competitor adds a clause to their contract, can you add the same clause if it's covered by copyright, or are you forever banned from…

I've had a similar question about the validity of free software licenses that only permit verbatim redistribution, and whether it's possible to use ideas from such a license in another license. The idea of a license being under a license just seems alien to me.
Post reply on HN