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GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

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Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#81

Post by jerf »

kutkloon7 wrote: post #27
ifdefdebug wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes it feels like Kafka's The Trial is where the US court system takes most of it's inspiration from...

In think that in most countries, a large company will always win big trials. Andrew "bunnie" Huang has written a very good 2-page note on this in: http://bunniefoo.com/nostarch/HackingTheXbox_Free.pdf (first two pages, but the whole book is a good read) In the US it seems especially bad, since Americans seem exceptionally obsessed with "living the American dream" aka making a lot of money. Many people assume that if…

"Many people assume that if you have a lot of money, you must be a good person."

That sounds like one of those things that people assume everybody else must think, but nobody actually thinks.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#82

Post by pdimitar »

endymi0n wrote: post #65
lostboys67 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad that having even minimal employee rights is some how seen as exceptional.

I couldn't care less about IP myself - but the real reason this stuff is pretty standard is that investors are somehow really bullish about IP (the "secret sauce"). Against our own beliefs, we decided for pretty strict contract terms around IP as this topic usually turns out to be one of the standard blockers in any funding and exit negotiations. In former companies, after a financing round people had to sign new ter…

Such offers must be refused. I know it's easier said than done when you have your back against the wall.

But turning down such people in favor of those who respect your IP is always the better investment down the line.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#83

Post by throwaway7558 »

uniclaude wrote: post #8

People keep complaining about how hard and expensive it is to attract top talent. This kind of measure is exactly how you do it. Provide an environment where employees feel trusted and empowered, pay market rate, screen properly instead of having applicants jump through hoops, and you won't have much trouble hiring. Kudos to github for this, I'm impressed!

I agree--this is excellent and very tech-talent-friendly. As an example on the other side of the spectrum: I work for a very large Silicon Valley company that is well known (you've heard of them) for secrecy and obsessively guarding its IP. Here we can't[1] work on Open Source, work on potential start-up ideas, moonlight writing software for some extra cash, publish (either academically or releasing software online, app stores or web), or really do anything substantial regarding software outside of work. On personal time, weekends, on our own equipment, doesn't matter. It's a serious drawback, to the point where I've been actively looking around. I'm certain this will have an extremely positive effect on GitHub's attractiveness as an employer.

1: Technically, the policy is "ask your manager" but everyone knows what the answer is.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#84

Post by lsaferite »

fs111 wrote: post #79
VLM wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employment is dead, contract is the way of the future. Do you really want to buy into a feudalistic legacy organizational model knowing that the odds of rising up in the pyramid are approximately zero? And they're going to downsize with no loyalty if needed to bump the stock price later on. Like a decapitated chicken the company will strut around a bit randomly canceling or creating projects so you have no control ov…

> Employment is dead, contract is the way of the future. I am pretty happy with my employment. Paid vacation, paid sick days, reasonable hours and all that good stuff.

Ok. Now imagine you are getting twice as much after taxes for the same work but without benefits. Would you still be as happy? Hell, even 50% more. And you are spreading the work across multiple clients so any one client 'firing' you is suddenly not a huge thing since your income is distributed across multiple clients. Sure, you don't get paid benefits, but you get higher income and the ability to work for multiple clients. Not every person can do that and even among those that can, not every one has the motivation to do it.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#85

Post by VLM »

ratherbefuddled wrote: post #41

This is just putting into a contract what ought to be considered normal and reasonable defaults. I don't think they deserve special praise for it, rather companies that don't do this deserve criticism. Whenever I've encountered overly grasping IP clauses in contracts I've always had them re-written so they only cover work which is done during working hours or related to . No employer has ever objected to this, they u…

I'm not a lawyer so this isn't legal advice but that's very interesting about English law, because in the USA employees have the "in the course of employment" as you state but USA independent contractors retain copyright unless they assign it as part of their contract, so about 99% of contracts have a clause to assign ownership and copyright to the client. Also in the USA putting language like "employment" in a contract is like asking the IRS to please audit you for faking a 1099 relationship while being in a W-2 relationship, which might also be a USA thing. I can imagine a tax system could be created where the local equivalent of W2 vs 1099 has no financial impact on the government (perhaps via most funding being from VAT?) therefore the local equivalent of the IRS simply wouldn't care if you LARP as a contractor or employee while actually being the other.

Is that just in England or is that the norm in the whole UK or even former commonwealth like Canada? I've never had a Canadian client so I donno. I would imagine simple rule changes like that would have interesting effects on the whole employee vs contractor relationship.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#86

Post by andrewfromx »

brianwawok wrote: post #66
andrewfromx wrote: post #56

When I was an employee of BizRate/Shopzilla in 2005 I would take my laptop downstairs to my car parked in the company parking garage, and code on my personal project for exactly 1 hour from 12-1 my lunch break. But the laptop was charged with electrons from shopzilla's office plug and the parking garage turns out is still technically on the company's property.

So you got sued and lost it?

no, there never was any suing, but trying to adhear to the contract I signed was just impossible. Everywhere you looked you were using a company resource somehow.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#88

Post by throwanem »

lsaferite wrote: post #84
fs111 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employment is dead, contract is the way of the future. I am pretty happy with my employment. Paid vacation, paid sick days, reasonable hours and all that good stuff.

Ok. Now imagine you are getting twice as much after taxes for the same work but without benefits. Would you still be as happy? Hell, even 50% more. And you are spreading the work across multiple clients so any one client 'firing' you is suddenly not a huge thing since your income is distributed across multiple clients. Sure, you don't get paid benefits, but you get higher income and the ability to work for multiple c…

> Now imagine you are getting twice as much after taxes for the same work

That would have been wonderful!

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#89

Post by Dayshine »

lsaferite wrote: post #84
fs111 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employment is dead, contract is the way of the future. I am pretty happy with my employment. Paid vacation, paid sick days, reasonable hours and all that good stuff.

Ok. Now imagine you are getting twice as much after taxes for the same work but without benefits. Would you still be as happy? Hell, even 50% more. And you are spreading the work across multiple clients so any one client 'firing' you is suddenly not a huge thing since your income is distributed across multiple clients. Sure, you don't get paid benefits, but you get higher income and the ability to work for multiple c…

>so any one client 'firing' you is suddenly not a huge thing

With 3 months notice and strong union protection (public sector) it already isn't.

I'd much rather work for a single excellent organisation where I know I'm doing good than many who can't hold on to good staff and need contractors.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#90

Post by pc86 »

MadManE wrote: post #76
kutkloon7 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In think that in most countries, a large company will always win big trials. Andrew "bunnie" Huang has written a very good 2-page note on this in: http://bunniefoo.com/nostarch/HackingTheXbox_Free.pdf (first two pages, but the whole book is a good read) In the US it seems especially bad, since Americans seem exceptionally obsessed with "living the American dream" aka making a lot of money. Many people assume that if…

That's not been my observation. People assume that if you have a lot of money, you must be good at something, not that you are inherently good.

It seems a lot of folks on HN think that if you have a lot of money, you either made it in a startup, and are thus brilliant, or you made it in any other fashion, and are probably a crook.
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