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Go To University, Not For CS

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Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#111
post #12

It was a great post right up until the part where he started talking about computer science. It left me with the feeling that either Zed did not study computer science, and is just talking out of his ass, or went through a very bad computer science program and has generalized that all of them must be that bad. How arrogant can you be? There's nothing for you to learn from 100 years of algorithms, complexity theory, l…

Sadly, the post is just a rant in my opinion. The desire to know, to improve yourself, etc... can't be linked directly only to the fact that you are attending university x pursuing a degree in y. You can have it, you can develop it or you don't have it. The environment can help to improve the development rate, but if you don't have it you can't develop it even if you follow some "humanistic" courses.

While i agree that these "java schools" are nearly useless, even if i don't know deeply the usa scenario, i guess that is still possible to skim out this kind of places and choose a university with a more well-rounded curriculum.

And just looking at communities like HN, everyone can notice that even CS majors can have a multitude of multi-faceted interests.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with him at all. I would say that the human race knows approximately nothing about building software. Yeah, we can do it, but we're not very good at it. If bridges and buildings were software, we would have all died in collapsing buildings and the human race would be extinct.

Software is built the way to collapse _because_ it's not like brides and people don't lose lives if it collapses. A little bit of Darwin, on why things are the way they are.

Wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b1pkKR-Acc (If you don't want to watch the video, read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296)

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#113
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I agree with his first part; and here is why. I've employed a goodly few programmers - invariably the least good are CS majors, the best are usually engineers or physicists. The reason is that CS is a theoretical degree, and far too many people do it assuming they will become a "programmer of value", rather than a potentially important CS researcher. I've had applicants bore be with details of compiler theory t…

I'm really not sure what you mean. I have a CS degree from a ~50th ranked US University. It is not considered a math degree, but instead a CS degree from an engineering department. My education was engineering focused. My degree says I am a graduate from the Engineering school. I can write assembly, program a fpga, write OO programs, OS drivers and System calls. Shoot, I even wrote My own file system. I learned java…

That sounds exactly like the sort of degree I mean. It's not all that common though, in my experience, to find a CS degree with that sort of curriculum.

Do you just cross me off the list because I have a CS degree.

That's silly :) You may have noted from my post that I do hire CS majors.

but do they understand the inner workings of a computer? Do they understand complexity, even the basic data structures.

Yes, usually a lot better than most CS graduates. Because generally speaking in the real world these are engineering problems rather than pure problems.

This is just my observation, but I don't think I am wrong - CS majors are generally worse programmers (and usually more full of themselves, but that's another matter) than CS engineers.

I would consider you (based on your post) an engineer; as you explain, you were part of the engineering dept.

(that's not to say CS majors are all bad - I've met some extremely good ones. The problem is that the majority of CS is taught as a pure subject with a smattering of applied theory. There is a distinct lack of problem solving involved. Traditional disclaimer: YMMV)

Also I should point out that being an engineer does not automatically make you a great programmer. Clearly you need an interest, an amount of aptitude and the ability/willingness to learn the pure subjects (if they were not part of your degree). The last of those isn't all that important - to be a good programmer you only need the amount of pure theory that is required (and you learn to pick it up as you go) - this is a common trait of all engineering.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#114
post #8

I must thoroughly disagree. First off, I agree on the importance of culture. But equating a CS degree with coding is just plain wrong; Dijkstra has a nice quote on this. CS is and should be applied mathematics, and what more timeless topic is there than math? Secondly, there are some serious doubts whether university teaches you to think independently. As a counter argument, read "The Disadvantage of an Elite Educati…

Where did you get your CS degree? Or more importantly, which institutions do you know of that actually teach CS as applied mathematics and aren't just "Java Schools?" I went to roughly a school with what was and still is an incredibly mediocre CS department and, as far as I can tell, this is the case more times than it isn't. I spent time working on a Pure Mathematics degree but eventually switched to CS and I still…

I attended the University of Central Arkansas (Go Purple Bears!) starting in 1998. This is obviously not a top-tier school by any stretch.

I felt like it was an excellent program. We spent all of a semester on C/C++. My program was heavy on the math (Calculus, Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, Statistics, and a few others I can't bring to mind). We studied algorithms, number systems, analysis, and all sorts of topics.

The amount of time we spent 'learning to program' was minimal. Maybe I was lucky, but I have to imagine it's hardly different for the majority of programs.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#115
post #76
post #4

It's difficult to take this person's point seriously when he claims >Another way to explain the shallowness of Computer Science is that it's the only discipline that eschews paradox. Even mathematics has reams of unanswered questions and potential paradox in its core philosophy. In Computer Science, there's none. No unanswered questions? Rubbish, 'P=NP' anyone? Correctness of the assumption of the Church-Turing hypot…

Just a quick nitpick - I've known people to be not particularly impressed by the Halting Problem. The real result, if you want to wow someone, is Rice's theorem ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem ): 'Not only can you not decide halting - you can't decide anything else either.'

Also, check out Blum's speedup theorem. Very odd.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#117
post #12

It was a great post right up until the part where he started talking about computer science. It left me with the feeling that either Zed did not study computer science, and is just talking out of his ass, or went through a very bad computer science program and has generalized that all of them must be that bad. How arrogant can you be? There's nothing for you to learn from 100 years of algorithms, complexity theory, l…

Zed is an angry man with a chip on his shoulder. His words should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#118
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That brings up the question; when did they get into the industry? Back when there was no such thing as a Computer Science degree, you of course didn't need one to get a job as a programmer I'm sure there are some people still who get into Google and Microsoft with no work experience or degree, but I suspect that number was higher when these things were new and all. I also suspect a good number of the people you were…

you need work experience /or/ a degree. If you have neither, you must first do the job you want for the pay you are qualified for. I spent several years doing computer work while earning a McDonalds wage. (I got lucky, and was able to dramatically shorten this period of time because, well, it was dot-com time, and I could spell C.) As far as I can tell, though, requirements for degrees at BigCo type jobs are becoming…

It's incredibly hard to get that work experience without a degree. Why would a company hire someone without experience or CS degree for a programming job when they could hire someone with a CS degree for only a marginal amount of extra money ?

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#119
I will go to University for Computing. I am one of the apparently few people who love studying - not the act of studying,but the reason to study. Any interaction with people increases my ability to think and speak. This is a quote from somwhere: "The rate of cultural and economic progress depends on the rate at which ideas are having sex." Educational facilities (even if they limit your creativity)increase the rate at which ideas have sex and that's good. After spending two years in an International Baccalaureate program I have found that I have completely changed my way of thinking and speaking. I changed. I am more grown up. There are many people - those who don't understand the reason to spend years in school - who can't even understand me anymore. I ceased to speak in terms of e.g. temperature, but in terms of heat radiation and entropy change. Common people can't understand me. That seems pointless, but it has made my brain more agile in analyzing things that are more complex and that would take too much work to resolve with 'common language'.

This is the power of education. I agree, you don't have to study CS, but for gods sake, if you want to be a programmer don't study a humanistic subject (except maybe philosophy). Study something that can push your brain to think and to create complex in-brain connections.

The reason I say don't study something like history is because I believe that in some decades simple facts won't matter much, only analyzing the facts will. I believe that in less than 50 years we will have computers connected to our brains that will be able to hold all the facts we learn and even perform simple analysis. But the complex tasks will be left to the brain, and so one must learn to increase its mental processing capacity and not to increase memory capacity The other reason for studying CS are connections. Meeting people, potential partners, employers and all the rest. You don't get that if you don't study CS. University is the easy way to come to meet people and get a job. You'd have to have a much better portfolio to get a job if you don't have a technical degree.

On the bad side, universities are expensive. But there's hope to earn the money back with a great degree.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#120
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I agree with his first part; and here is why. I've employed a goodly few programmers - invariably the least good are CS majors, the best are usually engineers or physicists. The reason is that CS is a theoretical degree, and far too many people do it assuming they will become a "programmer of value", rather than a potentially important CS researcher. I've had applicants bore be with details of compiler theory t…

What we need is an intermediary; an Engineering degree that hands you some basics of CS and a whole lot of critical thinking. The whole aim of a degree like that is to point you in the right direction and let your interests develop into a career. You may not have it in the states, but the rest of the world does. I graduated a five-year (160 credit hour) curriculum in "Computer Engineering" which is a bundle of low-le…

I attended (but sadly, never graduated) the University of Central Florida in the US as a Computer Engineering major and the courses were as you described: Engineering + Math + Computer Science.
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