Leslie Lamport: Video course on TLA+
31–40 of 78 posts
Re: Leslie Lamport: Video course on TLA+
#32Great to see this here! I act as a TA for Dr. Lamport's TLA+ courses at Microsoft, and can answer any questions y'all have. TLA+ in one sentence: it is a language used to write specifications, same as you might write a spec in English/your chosen informal language, except here you write your spec in basic mathematics; benefits of a formal specification language include freedom from ambiguity, model-checking, and even…
Dr. Lamport does courses at Microsoft? More details please.
Re: Leslie Lamport: Video course on TLA+
#33Great to see this here! I act as a TA for Dr. Lamport's TLA+ courses at Microsoft, and can answer any questions y'all have. TLA+ in one sentence: it is a language used to write specifications, same as you might write a spec in English/your chosen informal language, except here you write your spec in basic mathematics; benefits of a formal specification language include freedom from ambiguity, model-checking, and even…
I haven't watched the videos yet but I have been keeping my eye on TLA+ ever since seeing the whitepaper from Amazon and how they use TLA+ to spec out their distributed systems. As someone that works on distributed systems that could use some formality I think TLA+ could help, however, I have a hard time really understanding it. Do you know of any straight forward non-trivial examples? Something a little more complex…
If you're interested in learning more, I also wrote a beginner's guide[1] to the language, which contains concrete examples and exercises.
[0] https://medium.com/espark-engineering-blog/formal-methods-in...
Re: Leslie Lamport: Video course on TLA+
#34So how amenable is tla+ to automatic translation to an existing programming language?
So you can't guarantee your implementation matches your spec. All the more reason to write unit tests!
Re: Leslie Lamport: Video course on TLA+
#35Great to see this here! I act as a TA for Dr. Lamport's TLA+ courses at Microsoft, and can answer any questions y'all have. TLA+ in one sentence: it is a language used to write specifications, same as you might write a spec in English/your chosen informal language, except here you write your spec in basic mathematics; benefits of a formal specification language include freedom from ambiguity, model-checking, and even…
Outside of distributed systems what is it used for? I've only ever heard of it's use in the formalization of distributed systems.
Re: Leslie Lamport: Video course on TLA+
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
Dr. Lamport does courses at Microsoft? More details please.
Only for Microsoft employees, unfortunately! If you work at Microsoft, send me an email (alias is same as username here) and I'll get you added to the TLA+ Outlook group for future course announcements and such.
Re: Leslie Lamport: Video course on TLA+
#37Great to see this here! I act as a TA for Dr. Lamport's TLA+ courses at Microsoft, and can answer any questions y'all have. TLA+ in one sentence: it is a language used to write specifications, same as you might write a spec in English/your chosen informal language, except here you write your spec in basic mathematics; benefits of a formal specification language include freedom from ambiguity, model-checking, and even…
Re: Leslie Lamport: Video course on TLA+
#38Great to see this here! I act as a TA for Dr. Lamport's TLA+ courses at Microsoft, and can answer any questions y'all have. TLA+ in one sentence: it is a language used to write specifications, same as you might write a spec in English/your chosen informal language, except here you write your spec in basic mathematics; benefits of a formal specification language include freedom from ambiguity, model-checking, and even…
I have a passing familiarity with proof assistants such as Cow and HOL. How would you compare TLA+ with those? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coq https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOL_(proof_assistant)
There might come a day where TLAPS is as powerful as Coq for writing general mathematical proofs (indeed, better ways of writing proofs and mathematics seem to be a passion of Dr. Lamport's, see his paper How to Write a 21st Century Proof[0]), but for now it's far, far easier to prove even simple statements about the Natural numbers in Coq.
Re: Leslie Lamport: Video course on TLA+
#39*edit: sorry I see the link after the end of video#1...
Re: Leslie Lamport: Video course on TLA+
#40Great to see this here! I act as a TA for Dr. Lamport's TLA+ courses at Microsoft, and can answer any questions y'all have. TLA+ in one sentence: it is a language used to write specifications, same as you might write a spec in English/your chosen informal language, except here you write your spec in basic mathematics; benefits of a formal specification language include freedom from ambiguity, model-checking, and even…
I have a passing familiarity with proof assistants such as Cow and HOL. How would you compare TLA+ with those? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coq https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOL_(proof_assistant)
1. Difference in theory -- the theory of computation in Coq and HOL is based on functional programming; especially in Coq (I know very little about HOL), algorithms are functions in the FP sense (lambda expressions). In TLA, algorithms are state machines, and there's a richer notion of relationship between algorithms. This makes some things easier in TLA: Instead of programs being equal extensionally or definitionally, they can be equal or similar in many ways. In fact, in TLA there's a partial order relation on algorithms that reflects the refinement/abstraction relation. Also, it means that different kinds of algorithms -- sequential, concurrent, parallel, realtime etc., are all defined in the same way using the exact same ideas. This also makes it very easy to specify some properties -- such as worst-case complexity -- that are tricky in Coq. Having said that, people working on realtime systems in Coq implemented a simple version of TLA in Coq.
2. Differences in goals and audience -- Coq and HOL are ultimately general mathematical proof assistants. TLA+ is a tool for reasoning about digital systems. Coq and HOL can obviously reason about programs and TLA+ can prove general math theorems, but the focus is different. For example, Coq is used by logicians to explore new logics and mathematical foundations; you don't want to use TLA+ for that. On the other hand, TLA+ is used by "ordinary" engineers in industry working on "ordinary" software, while Coq and HOL are virtually unused in industry, and in the few cases they are, it's almost always in conjunction with academics and academic projects.
3. Differences in tools/abilities -- Coq can generate runnable code and be used for end-to-end verification. TLA+ cannot generate code, and while it has been used by academics for end-to-end verification, that is most certainly not its intended use. It is intended to be used in modeling large, complex systems at an abstraction level that's significantly higher than the code to find errors in design. As far as general math proofs are concerned, Coq is more capable than TLAPS, the TLA+ proof system. On the other hand, TLA+ has a model-checker that makes its proof checker almost irrelevant for large, complex specifications. As the users of TLA+ usually don't require a 100% watertight end-to-end specification, they're content to get the less than 100% guarantee of the model checker in exchange for what is at least a one order of magnitude reduction in effort.
In short, I would say that tools like Coq have a more academic focus, and are in general more interesting to academics and less to engineers, while TLA+ has a more industrial focus, and is of more interest to engineers and less to academics.
But I will repeat and say that while there are big difference in theory, goals and usage, ultimately when working on verifying software, the challenge is in thinking about your system mathematically and understanding how and why it works (or not). This work is similar both in effort and technique no matter what formalism you choose to use.