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Go To University, Not For CS

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Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#71
Huh. I'm not sure whether to agree or disagree with this. On the one hand, I learned a lot of interesting CS stuff (algorithms, complexity theory, cryptography, parallel computing, compiler techniques, operating systems design, etc) while doing computer engineering in a university in Singapore. As far as I know, the CS courses in both the older universities in my country also teach the same things sans the hardware stuff we also learned in CE. These are useful things to know which would have been very hard for me to learn outside of university, and we're not MIT.

On the other hand, there are a lot of other sources of accreditation available here that conduct courses exactly like those Zed mentioned. In those cases, I would have to agree that it's not worth the money to take those courses. Then again, they're usually not called CS over here. They have names like Business IT or some such. IMO, you cannot call yourself a CS course unless you teach, you know, CS, which is pretty much the case here. What's the situation in the States? Are there a lot of courses teaching you how to code Java billed as CS?

p.s. of course I've forgotten most of the CS stuff that I've learned in university, but just knowing that they're there if I need them and gaining the big picture How Things Work was worth the time spent and makes me a better programmer.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#72
My take, for what it's worth:

I was a major nerd through high school. We got a great teacher my Sophomore year who taught us all the basics of algorithms, and gave us enough freedom to pursue our own interests. I taught myself 8086 assembly language, and thereby grasped pointers in a way my classmates couldn't.

Fast forward to college. I wasted my time for four years. The most memorable CS things I learned were i, j, and k as iterators (in other words: some accepted formatting which makes reading each others' code easier), SQL (not well, and how hard would it be to pick this up on my own?), and finite automatons.

The memorable non-CS things are vastly more numerable. Anthropology, physics, philosophy, and mathematics.

Ten years down the road, I've found that most of my career has consisted of a) finding and fixing bugs and b) gluing code together. I have devised precisely one original algorithm (I don't mean simply writing fresh code, but writing an original algorithm). An awareness of computational complexity has been necessary, but a deep understanding of algorithms has not.

Here's the kicker: getting a job without a lot of algorithm and puzzle talent proves difficult. Of course, I find this hilarious in the face of my career experience. If I were brilliant at algorithms and puzzle solving, I would have been terribly, terribly bored for virtually all of my career. It's been my experience that interviewers tend to overestimate the complexity of the tasks their team faces each day.

So, I would advise a young'un who already has substantial computer talent to pursue education in a different area. You'll meet more interesting people, develop your character, and have the option of a very different career path if you tire of software or vice-versa.

Of course, all of this goes out the window if you truly want to be a computer scientist. But it seems to me there are at least ten well-paying "code gluing" jobs for every one research scientist position, so I hardly see this as defining necessity for a career.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#73
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we'll ever get around having to build software with code and highly trained developers. The world is still very much custom engineered, from architecture to civil engineering, electrical to mechanical engineering, even mass produced items have relatively few interchangeable parts.

I agree. However, it is worth examining places like Dubai -- the tallest building in the world, and indeed practically an entire new city, was built by unskilled laborers working for dollars a day. That's a compelling case for commoditization of talent, but in the end I think it's just a heuristic improvement. It gets you pretty far, but at the end of the day you still have huge teams of PhDs and M.Archs doing the ac…

> an entire new city, was built by unskilled laborers working for dollars a day.

Let's see if it's still standing a couple decades from now.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#74
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What BigCos don't hire without degrees? I know people at Google and Microsoft without a degree. I work for a giant corporation, without a degree.

I recently saw a posting at Altera which said they required a full transcript for anyone with less than 8 years of work experience. Needless to say, I did not apply.

Job postings (and HR reps) often lie. Google claimed they needed a full transcript for anyone with less than 5 years of experience, I said "Sure, but it'll take 2 weeks to arrive, and my other offer is getting antsy", and they promptly forgot about it.

It's usually better to apply anyway and let folks reject you if they really don't like what they see, rather than taking job postings literally. They're really just guidelines.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#75
I thought the point of the article wasn't about the merits of a CS degree, but rather if someone is a pretty sharp person that already knows how to program, should he/she go to college for the experience and to learn about all that other non-programming knowledge out there. I say, hell yes, the more exposure to knowledge the better, and chances are they will be drawn into CS classes because it truly interests them.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#76
post #4

It's difficult to take this person's point seriously when he claims >Another way to explain the shallowness of Computer Science is that it's the only discipline that eschews paradox. Even mathematics has reams of unanswered questions and potential paradox in its core philosophy. In Computer Science, there's none. No unanswered questions? Rubbish, 'P=NP' anyone? Correctness of the assumption of the Church-Turing hypot…

Just a quick nitpick - I've known people to be not particularly impressed by the Halting Problem.

The real result, if you want to wow someone, is Rice's theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem): 'Not only can you not decide halting - you can't decide anything else either.'

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#77

I agree. I went through my junior year of a CS degree and dropped out because it wasn't worth it. If I was to do it over again, I would definitely have chosen a different degree. I'm 100% certain that doing a different degree, I would have turned out a better programmer and better at something else. CS (or any programming degrees) are not as intellectually challenging as they should be. If you want to learn how to pr…

I got a degree in physics which I regret not at all. I recommend the hard sciences: Physics, biology, or chemistry. Or a similarly 'hard' engineering degree: EE, ChemE, MechE, or whatever the engineering equivalent of biology is. ;) (The name for that is still being invented. "Biomedical engineering" is one term you'll hear.) Take plenty of lab courses; try to get some summer science internships involving programming…

I always figured I'd do that - I entered as a physics major and spent six semesters as one - but ended up graduating in CS and really wishing I'd done CS from the beginning. I wanted to be a physicist, I didn't want to do physics; conversely, I didn't want to be a computer programmer, but I liked to write computer programs.

If I were giving advice to incoming freshmen (which, I guess I am, since there're bound to be some reading), I'd tell them to try out a whole bunch of different courses, and then major in the one where the homework makes them come alive. Because when you end up spending a good chunk of your life in a field, the important thing is that you enjoy the day-to-day work, not that you enjoy the trappings of success. (Of course, you should probably keep an eye on how marketable the field is - I don't recommend choosing a major just so you can get a high-paying job, but if you find you like CS and you find you like Beowulf, being a programmer will net you a much more comfortable life than being a Beowulf scholar.)

Incidentally, I also took the "don't take courses in subjects you can teach yourself" approach. It worked very well for things where teaching myself involved reading a book, like history or economics. It worked not at all for things where teaching myself involved working out problems, like statistics and linear algebra. I suspect CS is closer to the latter than the former.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#78
post #70
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm currently coming out of high school (11 days until graduation), and, I haven't learned much. 6 AP courses are offered at my school, none of them are pushed on you until after you sign up for the class and decide that wasn't a good idea. I haven't ever done "real science". AP Physics B (non calculus) is the only ap science course offered, and it still was just "here's a lecture about physics, do your homework, few…

Sigh, algebra based non calculus physics is cargo cult science much in the original sense that Feynman started the meme. No one outside of education does it this way, or as I like to put it, there's a reason Newton invented the integral calculus to develop classical mechanics and why Edison couldn't compete with Tesla (self-taught Edison didn't have the math to do polyphase AC, which was the only practical approach b…

On math? I gave up a few years ago, borrowed some math texts from the library and taught myself up through single variable calculus. I still take the math courses at my school because I need the credits to graduate.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#79
post #78
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh, algebra based non calculus physics is cargo cult science much in the original sense that Feynman started the meme. No one outside of education does it this way, or as I like to put it, there's a reason Newton invented the integral calculus to develop classical mechanics and why Edison couldn't compete with Tesla (self-taught Edison didn't have the math to do polyphase AC, which was the only practical approach b…

On math? I gave up a few years ago, borrowed some math texts from the library and taught myself up through single variable calculus. I still take the math courses at my school because I need the credits to graduate.

Great! If you now do calculus based classical mechanics and electrodynamics to cement it (you'll need some more calculus for the latter) you'll be in great shape. Ask if you'd like some book recommendations.

Re: Go To University, Not For CS

#80
post #76
post #4

It's difficult to take this person's point seriously when he claims >Another way to explain the shallowness of Computer Science is that it's the only discipline that eschews paradox. Even mathematics has reams of unanswered questions and potential paradox in its core philosophy. In Computer Science, there's none. No unanswered questions? Rubbish, 'P=NP' anyone? Correctness of the assumption of the Church-Turing hypot…

Just a quick nitpick - I've known people to be not particularly impressed by the Halting Problem. The real result, if you want to wow someone, is Rice's theorem ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem ): 'Not only can you not decide halting - you can't decide anything else either.'

Really? They're impressed by Rice's theorem but not the Halting Problem? I find that surprising, I would expect someone unimpressed with the Halting Problem would simply view Rice's theorem as an obvious consequence of the Halting Problem.
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