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Engineer Converts Van into Laundromat, Offers Free Loads to Homeless

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Re: Engineer Converts Van into Laundromat, Offers Free Loads to Homeless

#41

Post by averagewall »

dvt wrote: post #34
averagewall wrote: post #29

While it's a great thing he's doing, it looks like his main purpose is to convert people to his religion. Well, if that's what it takes to motivate someone to help others, then so be it.

He literally says that his goal is not conversions and that he's doing it because he realized he wasn't putting his faith into action. Further, even if he was trying to convert people, what's so bad about that? "Hi, let me help you and by the way here's what I believe and why I'm doing what I'm doing." -- no idea why that kind of train of thought can rationally be looked down upon. I've always failed to see why athei…

It's a one-way conversation. "I'm set in my belief and I think you might be weak-willed enough for me to influence your belief." Proselytizers don't open themselves up to be converted to athiesm. I've met a few and they shut down logical arguments.

Re: Engineer Converts Van into Laundromat, Offers Free Loads to Homeless

#42

Post by dvt »

averagewall wrote: post #41
dvt wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He literally says that his goal is not conversions and that he's doing it because he realized he wasn't putting his faith into action. Further, even if he was trying to convert people, what's so bad about that? "Hi, let me help you and by the way here's what I believe and why I'm doing what I'm doing." -- no idea why that kind of train of thought can rationally be looked down upon. I've always failed to see why athei…

It's a one-way conversation. "I'm set in my belief and I think you might be weak-willed enough for me to influence your belief." Proselytizers don't open themselves up to be converted to athiesm. I've met a few and they shut down logical arguments.

> It's a one-way conversation.

Even if this were true, so what? My argument has nothing to do with the merits of any belief or how set anyone is in said beliefs, there's no need to move the goalpost. I ask again: what is wrong with someone feeding a poor and destitute person and then handing them a Bible or a Quran or saying a prayer? Your only argument is that they might have an alterior motive.

But I would counter that argument in the same manner: so what? The good deed is still done and society has been objectively improved.

Re: Engineer Converts Van into Laundromat, Offers Free Loads to Homeless

#43

Post by etjossem »

dvt wrote: post #42
averagewall wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a one-way conversation. "I'm set in my belief and I think you might be weak-willed enough for me to influence your belief." Proselytizers don't open themselves up to be converted to athiesm. I've met a few and they shut down logical arguments.

> It's a one-way conversation. Even if this were true, so what? My argument has nothing to do with the merits of any belief or how set anyone is in said beliefs, there's no need to move the goalpost. I ask again: what is wrong with someone feeding a poor and destitute person and then handing them a Bible or a Quran or saying a prayer? Your only argument is that they might have an alterior motive. But I would counter…

There's nothing wrong with charitable work on the part of religious groups, but the fact that they are able to get something out of the situation is a symptom of a larger problem. Food, clean clothes, and a place to sleep are fundamental human rights. When folks don't have access to these things, we have to ask ourselves where we went wrong - as voters and engaged citizens, that's on us.

In an ideal world, we would already have agreed as a society to deliver these basic services without a catch. As soon as we agree to fund non-denominational relief for people in need, they will stop feeling compelled to give up their spiritual dignity for a meal.

Re: Engineer Converts Van into Laundromat, Offers Free Loads to Homeless

#44

Post by golergka »

etjossem wrote: post #38

Acts of charity like this have always struck me as creating an uncomfortable power dynamic. When sticking around to hear a religious presentation is the price of admission, it's not a pure form of generosity; it's transactional. Ron Powers even mentions the captive audience situation outright, near the end of the video. "If you have something like their clothes, you've got them for an hour, two hours ... we might as…

I think it's kind of ironic that you mention how his charity isn't 100% altruistic, but then juxtapose it with "social safety nets" - by which, I assume, you mean tax-funded welfare, which is forced on people by government and has nothing altruistic about it on any level.

Re: Engineer Converts Van into Laundromat, Offers Free Loads to Homeless

#45

Post by etjossem »

golergka wrote: post #44
etjossem wrote: post #38

Acts of charity like this have always struck me as creating an uncomfortable power dynamic. When sticking around to hear a religious presentation is the price of admission, it's not a pure form of generosity; it's transactional. Ron Powers even mentions the captive audience situation outright, near the end of the video. "If you have something like their clothes, you've got them for an hour, two hours ... we might as…

I think it's kind of ironic that you mention how his charity isn't 100% altruistic, but then juxtapose it with "social safety nets" - by which, I assume, you mean tax-funded welfare, which is forced on people by government and has nothing altruistic about it on any level.

Actual altruism is very rare. The level at which it exists in the United States is nowhere near sufficient to solve this country's homelessness problem. By all means, write inspiring news stories about pure generosity when it appears, but this is not one of those times. This is a man who looks at our collective unwillingness to help our most needy and sees a religious opportunity.

Some voters support safety nets out of a sense of altruism. Others do it for selfish reasons; they simply don't enjoy living next to homeless people. Still more - like myself - see housing as a fundamental human right we are not properly addressing. The motive by which people join this cause doesn't matter to me, as long as the result fulfills our citizens' basic needs and asks nothing in return from them. If a majority of the country agrees with me that poverty is a serious problem, then we'll all chip in to solve it.

I'm willing to do my bit - are you?

Re: Engineer Converts Van into Laundromat, Offers Free Loads to Homeless

#46

Post by linuxkerneldev »

zachrose wrote: post #39
etjossem wrote: post #38

Acts of charity like this have always struck me as creating an uncomfortable power dynamic. When sticking around to hear a religious presentation is the price of admission, it's not a pure form of generosity; it's transactional. Ron Powers even mentions the captive audience situation outright, near the end of the video. "If you have something like their clothes, you've got them for an hour, two hours ... we might as…

> I don't really see a need to glorify this in the local news. He's just a man who can buy time to proselytize very cheaply. To me, the fact that he exists is a signal that our existing social safety nets are insufficient to set folks up with clean clothes, let alone get them into housing. Ok that's true, but what's the economic return on proselytizing? I'll take a free mug from a vendor at a software booth, why shou…

> what's the economic return on proselytizing?

Interesting question. I did a quick check. It looks to be incredibly profitable, at least for main stream religious organizations (which tend to also be tax free).

The two top links for googling "profit of church" are:

Eg: From CNN:

" 1. The Vatican Bank has $8 billion in assets The Vatican Bank, which has about $8 billion in assets, has often been at the center of scandal and corruption since it was founded in 1942. Pope Benedict began the process of cleaning the bank up, and Francis has continued that work. " http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/24/news/pope-francis-visit-vati...

" THE Sydney Catholic archdiocese controls funds worth more than $1.2 billion and has regularly made multi-million dollar tax-free profits. The royal commission into child sex abuse heard the archdiocese banked surpluses of between $7.7 million and $44 million between 2004 and 2007, a period during which the Catholic church was aggressively defending a claim for $100,000 brought against it by former altar boy John Ellis. " http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/church-stil...

I believe John Oliver had an excellent analysis of how proselytizing tends to victimize the poorest section of society. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

Re: Engineer Converts Van into Laundromat, Offers Free Loads to Homeless

#47

Post by alkonaut »

dvt wrote: post #34
averagewall wrote: post #29

While it's a great thing he's doing, it looks like his main purpose is to convert people to his religion. Well, if that's what it takes to motivate someone to help others, then so be it.

He literally says that his goal is not conversions and that he's doing it because he realized he wasn't putting his faith into action. Further, even if he was trying to convert people, what's so bad about that? "Hi, let me help you and by the way here's what I believe and why I'm doing what I'm doing." -- no idea why that kind of train of thought can rationally be looked down upon. I've always failed to see why athei…

If someone drove around in a van and offered conversation to homeless people with a christian angle - that would be great. It's also great if someone offers laundry service. Talking to people is great. Talking about religion must be on their terms, otherwise it's preaching or being a missionary - which isn't.

What disturbs me is the idea of people have to feel even a little pressure to participate in his prayers or religious conversation just to get their clothes washed.

It's exactly what missionaries in Africa do: build schools and hospitals and inform about christianity.

If you are serious about charity then don't preach. Even if being charitable is part of acting out your own faith, separate the two.

I think this guy has a heart of gold and like so many others (like the missionaries in Africa) he doesn't see that there is a conflict in what hd is doing.

Re: Engineer Converts Van into Laundromat, Offers Free Loads to Homeless

#48

Post by gattilorenz »

etjossem wrote: post #38

Acts of charity like this have always struck me as creating an uncomfortable power dynamic. When sticking around to hear a religious presentation is the price of admission, it's not a pure form of generosity; it's transactional. Ron Powers even mentions the captive audience situation outright, near the end of the video. "If you have something like their clothes, you've got them for an hour, two hours ... we might as…

I think what he does is admirable, regardless of proselytism. Homeless people now can at least choose: - not to get the laundry done - not to talk to this guy while doing the laundry (I doubt he would force them to leave) - to do the laundry while talking to this guy

What was the choice before?

Besides that, I agree that there's a problem with the policies, but at least advertising the good example may get him funding or even start new services like that (maybe even non-religious).

Re: Engineer Converts Van into Laundromat, Offers Free Loads to Homeless

#49

Post by michaelt »

dvt wrote: post #35
alphonsegaston wrote: post #23

I think it's great that he's doing this, but I can't help but think how these kind of stories follow this weird American pattern of social problems being the hobby of the wealthy and/or an opportunity for cleverness. Why are we so fond of these narratives?

> Why are we so fond of these narratives? Because some people believe in that kind of remedy for these problems. I'm being a bit reductive, but there are basically two ways of solving social problems like homelessness: (a) everyone is forced to chip in (e.g. taxes) or (b) citizens make society better by their own volition (e.g. donations, volunteering). I see the merit of (a), but I like the idea of (b) a lot more.

  I like the idea of (b) a lot more.
It's a nice idea - but anyone who believes citizens should be making such donations is surely already making them - and yet our problems still exist. Doesn't that rather imply the average person isn't as charitable as would be needed?

Re: Engineer Converts Van into Laundromat, Offers Free Loads to Homeless

#50

Post by averagewall »

dvt wrote: post #42
averagewall wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a one-way conversation. "I'm set in my belief and I think you might be weak-willed enough for me to influence your belief." Proselytizers don't open themselves up to be converted to athiesm. I've met a few and they shut down logical arguments.

> It's a one-way conversation. Even if this were true, so what? My argument has nothing to do with the merits of any belief or how set anyone is in said beliefs, there's no need to move the goalpost. I ask again: what is wrong with someone feeding a poor and destitute person and then handing them a Bible or a Quran or saying a prayer? Your only argument is that they might have an alterior motive. But I would counter…

I didn't really answer you did I. I see it as a kind of insult. To get your clothes washed, you have to either be rude and feel like you might be turned away, or act humble and let someone unload their beliefs on you. Listening has a kind of psychological cost/effort. Offering someone who's desperate a free thing in exchange for their pride is a bit like bullying, but on a milder scale.
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