I'm an average looking, run of the mill white software developer in my late 30's. I still get massive anxiety about taking air trips because of the hassle and harassment I've received in the past from TSA agents. I have a hope that the backlash against the recent two failed Trump bans will continue to escalate and we'll see the end of this nonsense in our lifetimes. I think even the people who voted for this administ…
Don't Fly During Ramadan (2013)
91–100 of 120 posts
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan (2013)
#92What a horrific story. JetBlue doesn't deserve any high marks for their actions here either.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan (2013)
#93What a horrific story. JetBlue doesn't deserve any high marks for their actions here either.
He set off the explosive detector, and didn't provide a good answer to why he set it off.
What, short of "I was making a bomb" would be an answer that would satisfy you? It's not like it is up to him to know the intricacies of bomb detectors and their ridiculous false positive rates for certain chemicals, including such terribly dangerous goods as soap.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan (2013)
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Where did the TSA go wrong here? Perhaps it was the bit where they held him for 18 hours without charge, due process, food, or water. Edit: Misread the article. He was held for 3½ hours. Still, refusing to give him a glass of water was not necessary, unless water-activated throat-bombs are now a thing. In a more general sense, TSA went wrong the same way they usually go wrong. Kafka-esque "you're not detained but y…
>Still, refusing to give him a glass of water was not necessary, OK. Sure. I suppose if you're held for 3 hours, you should have a right to water. Is the big problem here? If you're detained for more than 1 hour you should get a bottle of water?
It seems obvious to me that refusing to give water is a calculated act designed to cause discomfort - not unlike unnecessarily giving multiple "obscene" pat downs [their words] - the closest TSA thugs can get to using the "enhanced interrogation" techniques that I think they wish they were allowed to use.
So it isn't specifically the lack of water that's the problem. The problem is the pattern of behaviour that the lack of water and the rest of the unnecessarily combative treatment are examples of. Too many TSA employees are on power trips.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan (2013)
#95I have the full sympathy to the guy. That said I am at loss what is it to do with Ramadan? I have not seen a single statement that his ordeal has anything to do with Ramadan but it just happened during Ramadan. Otherwise this is happening to all walks of life including white dudes (though much much less frequently). Just a catchy title? edit: my objection is to the title not the content.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan (2013)
#96Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan (2013)
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
He didn't refuse the scanner, he was given a choice and when his choice was going to get complicated he could no longer switch back to the scanner. He did opt for the scanner on his new flight. But none of that is really relevant to how he was treated. Why deny him a glass of water?
>He didn't refuse the scanner He wasn't detained because he refused a scanner. You know that. >when his choice was going to get complicated he could no longer switch back to the scanner. Well ... yeah. What you refer to as a complication was him testing positive for explosives or poison. >Why deny him a glass of water? Is that the problem? He didn't get a glass of water?
You might want to look at the Birmingham Six.
They were from Northern Ireland (and thus automatically suspected of terrorism) and living in Birmingham; they were travelling to attend the funeral of a childhood friend (and he was a terrorist); they travelled on the day a bomb went off in Birmingham; and they played a game of cards on the train.
Those cards were coated with nitrocellulose.
The fragments of nitrocellulose on their hands tested positive as nitroglycerine, and that bit of "evidence" was used to convict them of a crime they did not commit and imprison them for very many years.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12664938
You shouldn't make assumptions.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan (2013)
#98It's sad how much flying has changed since 9/11. Younger individuals will never realize how much easier it was to get through security. I'm sad at how he was treated and it's something that needs to be changed. It's not like treating anyone badly is going to result in more information.
It's interesting how this thread suddenly disappeared from the front page, btw.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan (2013)
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
He set off the explosive detector, and didn't provide a good answer to why he set it off.
> He set off the explosive detector, and didn't provide a good answer to why he set it off. What, short of "I was making a bomb" would be an answer that would satisfy you? It's not like it is up to him to know the intricacies of bomb detectors and their ridiculous false positive rates for certain chemicals, including such terribly dangerous goods as soap.
All that really matters here is the discussion with the explosives agent. This was the guy who had the power to 1) waive him on or 2) send him through tertiary screening. The interaction for the whole day was decided in this conversation. I honestly believe Varnull gave very bad answers here. Answering "I don't know" is a very bad answer. Even if he didn't answer the proxy questions, if he established that he was a safe and secure traveler, the security agent would have waived him on and he would have avoided the whole ordeal.
One of the answers he gave was so bad it made me cringe.
>“Well, I haven’t touched any explosives, but if I don’t even know what chemical we’re talking about, I don’t know how to figure out why the tests are picking it up.”
After he said this, I'm completely unsurprised he got held up in tertiary screening.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan (2013)
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
> He set off the explosive detector, and didn't provide a good answer to why he set it off. What, short of "I was making a bomb" would be an answer that would satisfy you? It's not like it is up to him to know the intricacies of bomb detectors and their ridiculous false positive rates for certain chemicals, including such terribly dangerous goods as soap.
He doesn't know how to talk to security. The primary purpose of security questioning is to establish that you are a safe, non-violent, legal traveler. Of course, security agents can't ask you this directly, so they ask this through proxy questions. Varnull did not understand this, and when asked the proxy questions, he gave vague answers and did not address the primary purpose. When the questions became personal, Var…
Is that a course in high school?
> The primary purpose of security questioning is to establish that you are a safe, non-violent, legal traveler.
It failed, miserably, see linked article.
> Of course, security agents can't ask you this directly, so they ask this through proxy questions. Varnull did not understand this, and when asked the proxy questions, he gave vague answers and did not address the primary purpose.
That is your interpretation. Mine is that he was exactly who he said he was: someone going about their legitimate private business and who - reluctantly - had to interface with the authorities.
> When the questions became personal, Varnull became defensive and talked back (the exact opposite of what he should do).
What should he do then? Grovel and stick his head up their asses? They're off base, they make all kinds of assumptions without verification and on top of that spend so much time on this one utterly benign traveler that a whole bunch of baddies could have slipped through elsewhere.
Here's a thought for you:
Take 10 guys like the OP, use them to tie up the resources of the authorities, then take 1 guy that is white, middle aged with a plan and some basic gear making it through the resulting melee. After all, if they are so easily distracted that's actually a security hole.
> All that really matters here is the discussion with the explosives agent.
Yes, who was using equipment that produces false positives regularly and who is well aware of all the ways in which it can create false positives.
> 1) waive him on or 2) send him through tertiary screening. The interaction for the whole day was decided in this conversation.
Nice they let him know. Instead he got several hours of 'you'll be out of here in a few minutes'.
> I honestly believe Varnull gave very bad answers here. Answering "I don't know" is a very bad answer.
Are you suggesting that he make stuff up? Do you realize that lying is a federal offense in this situation?
> if he established that he was a safe and secure traveler, the security agent would have waived him on and he would have avoided the whole ordeal.
Guess what, he was. So the process failed.
> One of the answers he gave was so bad it made me cringe.
>“Well, I haven’t touched any explosives, but if I don’t even know what chemical we’re talking about, I don’t know how to figure out why the tests are picking it up.”
It's an honest answer, as honest as he could have possibly been. Or is it illegal for a citizen to have some basic knowledge of chemistry? Any highschool student here would be able to understand the basics of what is happening at this screening. Or would you prefer we all pretend to be dumb sheep instead?
> After he said this, I'm completely unsurprised he got held up in tertiary screening.
Good for you. Me, I'd rather the authorities spend their time more productive than on harassing perfectly safe travelers on their petty little power trips.