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Broadband left out of infrastructure goals, and how the FCC wants to fix it

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Re: Broadband left out of infrastructure goals, and how the FCC wants to fix it

#31
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the market doesn't want to build it, we should think hard about whether we should build it There are good reasons to expect market failure here. New players very rarely enter infrastructure markets with existing incumbents because having to compete with the incumbent in a natural monopoly market is not expected to be profitable. And the "accidental duopoly" markets aren't going to do it. Both players try as hard…

> FTTH is a one-time expense. The maintenance cost of underground fiber shouldn't be any higher than wireless, and then you don't need to worry about spectrum or wireless line of sight obstructions or interference or any of the other problems with wireless. Most of the country doesn't bury utilities.[1] Point to point wireless is a lot cheaper than burying fiber, and also a lot cheaper than maintaining aerial fiber t…

> Most of the country doesn't bury utilities.

And they waste money in the long run as a result. It's the same situation -- pay once to put utilities underground and then you don't have to pay forever fixing the fallout from every different kind of weather.

Re: Broadband left out of infrastructure goals, and how the FCC wants to fix it

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the solution there is to buy out the incumbent. Then you get ~100% uptake instead of 40%, which better than doubles your total revenue and lets you start with the existing network rather than from scratch. You could even bring on some of their technical staff.

Australia tried that. Total disaster.

Well it's still in progress, a bit hard to declare it a disaster yet.

Re: Broadband left out of infrastructure goals, and how the FCC wants to fix it

#33
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a link for sources 1 and 2, perchance? Also, I don't think you amortized the interest? As you pay down th bond, the interest cost goes down, so you have more to pay towards the principal...

I cite the sources further down in response to a sibling comment. You're right, I didn't amortize the interest: fixing that brings the pay-off period to a bit under 25 years, not 37.

... and less than 10 years once you use the correct numbers. And that's assuming operating costs are 60% before debt service, which is highish.

Re: Broadband left out of infrastructure goals, and how the FCC wants to fix it

#34
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The network cost $330 million,[1] and has 71,000 subscribers.[2] Both figures are inaccurate. The $330M includes $111.5M in federal grants which was used for EPB's smart grid. Thus only $220M can be attributed to the fiber network. EPB fiber also had 83,000 subscribers at the end of FY2016, as per their annual report. 87,000 projected by end of FY2017. Taken together this gives us $2650 per connected subscriber, al…

$330 million is the widely reported figure for the cost of the fiber network, which is also used as the basis for EBP's smart grid. I don't think it includes the expenditures on the other smart grid components. Page 11 shows $41 million in "operation expenses" but there is also other line items for "cost of services" and administrative overhead. Those are "operating expenses" in the accounting sense. The cash flow st…

Just because something is widely reported does not mean it's true. You can just as easily find reports which details the cost of the network at $220M, which is how much the city bonded for to build it. Furthermore the sources you cite yourself clearly states that of the $330M, $111.5M was a federal grant for the smart grid.

As to the smart grid project, that was a separate $232M project. https://www.smartgrid.gov/project/epb_smart_grid_project.htm...

Of those smart grid investments, only the Backhaul Communications part could conceivably (in part) be attributed to the fiber network buildout costs. In no way can 100% of the federal smart grid grant be seen as a subsidy to the fiber network. Even if you subscribe to conspiracy theories about the power side secretly subsidizing the fiber side, that 100% subsidy theory just does not survive the collision with reality. Given how litigated this issue has been, there's no way the opponents would let a hundred million dollar misuse of federal grant money slide.

Either way, no matter what dollar cost you peg the fiber network buildout costs at, your $5,000 cost per subscriber is plain wrong. The correct figure is closer to $2650, but it's still not even close to $5,000, even if you slap on an additional hundred million dollars in costs.

This obviously also makes your payback times wrong.

To give some context to EPB fiber's costs, ten years ago Verizon paid $850 per premise passed and an additional $880 per premise connected. These are in line with EPB's costs if you assume a 50% take rate for FiOS.

Just to rub it in on how wrong your estimate of $5,000 per subscriber is, the very source your cite yourself states that the average cost to connect a new subscriber to EPB fiber is $1,200.

But, wait, there's more!

Your analysis on the economics of fiber networks just crumble when you look at the annual report of EPB. Here's the punchline:

- operating expenses include debt service!

EPB fiber pays EPB $10M per year for the use of the fiber network. This is enough to cover the costs of the $220M bond. In fact it covers half of EPB's whole debt service. Incidentally EPB fiber's operating income would more than covers the remaining debt service with change to spare.

In other words your assumption of 60% in operating expenses excluding debt service is just plain wrong and all your calculations are wrong.

And that's even before factoring in the fact that service at $70 per month usually does not include cable tv. This in turn means that a large chunk of operating expenses for that service can be excluded, as cable tv rights are a major cost item.

All in all, even assuming debt service is included, 60% operating expenses for a fiber network is not a given.

Re: Broadband left out of infrastructure goals, and how the FCC wants to fix it

#35
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FTTH is a one-time expense. The maintenance cost of underground fiber shouldn't be any higher than wireless, and then you don't need to worry about spectrum or wireless line of sight obstructions or interference or any of the other problems with wireless. Most of the country doesn't bury utilities.[1] Point to point wireless is a lot cheaper than burying fiber, and also a lot cheaper than maintaining aerial fiber t…

> Most of the country doesn't bury utilities. And they waste money in the long run as a result. It's the same situation -- pay once to put utilities underground and then you don't have to pay forever fixing the fallout from every different kind of weather.

That's great, but time value of money being what it is, you'd rather pay for something later than paying for it now. One of the factors Google used in choosing Fiber cities was whether the city has arial power lines versus buried ones. Requiring cable burial is just another one of the many anti-development measures that keeps places like Silicon Valley from having fiber when far less wealthy places have it.

My neighborhood, in a part of Maryland where I can get to horse farms in five minutes, has fiber. It didn't even have public water/sewer until two years ago, but it had fiber. Tiny, non-to-code lots, arial power lines, and easy-going permitting authorities played a role in making fiber deployment feasible.

Re: Broadband left out of infrastructure goals, and how the FCC wants to fix it

#36
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$330 million is the widely reported figure for the cost of the fiber network, which is also used as the basis for EBP's smart grid. I don't think it includes the expenditures on the other smart grid components. Page 11 shows $41 million in "operation expenses" but there is also other line items for "cost of services" and administrative overhead. Those are "operating expenses" in the accounting sense. The cash flow st…

Just because something is widely reported does not mean it's true. You can just as easily find reports which details the cost of the network at $220M, which is how much the city bonded for to build it. Furthermore the sources you cite yourself clearly states that of the $330M, $111.5M was a federal grant for the smart grid. As to the smart grid project, that was a separate $232M project. https://www.smartgrid.gov/pro…

> Just because something is widely reported does not mean it's true. You can just as easily find reports which details the cost of the network at $220M, which is how much the city bonded for to build it. Furthermore the sources you cite yourself clearly states that of the $330M, $111.5M was a federal grant for the smart grid.

Right, but sources say the $111.5M was used to build the fiber network that was a part of both the Smart Grid and broadband projects: "In 2009, a $111 million federal stimulus grant offered the opportunity to expedite construction of a long-planned fiber-optic network, said David Wade, chief operating officer for the power company. (EPB also had to borrow $219 million of the network’s $330 million cost.) Mr. Wade said it quickly became apparent that customers would be willing to pay for the one-gigabit connection offered over the network." (https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/04/technology/fast-internet-...)

> Of those smart grid investments, only the Backhaul Communications part could conceivably (in part) be attributed to the fiber network buildout costs.

Yes, but that's the fiber backbone underlying the residential internet service.

> Either way, no matter what dollar cost you peg the fiber network buildout costs at, your $5,000 cost per subscriber is plain wrong.

Sure, with the newer 83,000 subscribers figue, it's more like $4,000 rather than $5,000.

> To give some context to EPB fiber's costs, ten years ago Verizon paid $850 per premise passed and an additional $880 per premise connected. These are in line with EPB's costs if you assume a 50% take rate for FiOS.

The FiOS uptake rate is under 40% (and during the first decade was under 1/3). Even with your numbers that's $850 / 0.4 + $880 = $3,000 per customer. And those numbers are 2006 projections at the onset of the project: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/732712/0001193125061.... Through 2010, Verizon spent $23 billion on FiOS, and since then spent at least another $3 billion wiring up New York. It has about 7 million subscribers, or about $3,700 per subscriber. See also https://techcrunch.com/2013/04/08/google-fiber-cost-estimate ("As a point of comparison, it was estimated that it cost Verizon, before it halted FiOS buildout, about $4,000 per home to connect it to its fiber network.").

> Just to rub it in on how wrong your estimate of $5,000 per subscriber is, the very source your cite yourself states that the average cost to connect a new subscriber to EPB fiber is $1,200.

It says that's the "Average cost of hooking up new fiber optic customer for EPB." I don't take that to be the cost including construction of the network in the first place.

> - operating expenses include debt service!

Does it?

"Fiber optics revenues are recognized on the accrual basis at the time services are provided. Operating revenues include service sales net of bad debt expense and miscellaneous revenue related to ber optics operations. This miscellaneous revenue includes ad revenue, late payment fees, and rental income. Operating expenses include those expenses that result from the ongoing operation of the ber optics systems. Non-operating expenses consist of interest expense on indebtedness and various miscellaneous expenses."

> EPB fiber pays EPB $10M per year for the use of the fiber network.

Is that for debt service? That could be for shared O&M too.

> And that's even before factoring in the fact that service at $70 per month usually does not include cable tv. This in turn means that a large chunk of operating expenses for that service can be excluded, as cable tv rights are a major cost item.

Television packages are also a major revenue source. In computing the operating margin, if you exclude TV from costs you also need to exclude TV from revenues.

Re: Broadband left out of infrastructure goals, and how the FCC wants to fix it

#37
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of the country doesn't bury utilities. And they waste money in the long run as a result. It's the same situation -- pay once to put utilities underground and then you don't have to pay forever fixing the fallout from every different kind of weather.

That's great, but time value of money being what it is, you'd rather pay for something later than paying for it now. One of the factors Google used in choosing Fiber cities was whether the city has arial power lines versus buried ones. Requiring cable burial is just another one of the many anti-development measures that keeps places like Silicon Valley from having fiber when far less wealthy places have it. My neighb…

It isn't anti-development if the net present value is positive. Whether that's true obviously depends on the time value of money, i.e. interest rates, but interest rates are still near historic lows. So if there was ever a time to do it.

Re: Broadband left out of infrastructure goals, and how the FCC wants to fix it

#38
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of the country doesn't bury utilities. And they waste money in the long run as a result. It's the same situation -- pay once to put utilities underground and then you don't have to pay forever fixing the fallout from every different kind of weather.

That's great, but time value of money being what it is, you'd rather pay for something later than paying for it now. One of the factors Google used in choosing Fiber cities was whether the city has arial power lines versus buried ones. Requiring cable burial is just another one of the many anti-development measures that keeps places like Silicon Valley from having fiber when far less wealthy places have it. My neighb…

> That's great, but time value of money being what it is, you'd rather pay for something later than paying for it now.

That assumption only holds if the cost of the inputs do not rise with time. In fiber builds up to 80% of the costs are labor. If/when labor costs rise more than the cost of money then you are worse off putting off an inevitable/intended investment.

Furthermore if putting off an investment causes duplicate costs (build aerial, later replace with buried) or causes you to forego OPEX savings (aerial vs. buried facilities maintenance costs), then you are actually worse off by paying later.

Thus the time value of money is not the end all and be all.

Re: Broadband left out of infrastructure goals, and how the FCC wants to fix it

#39
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because something is widely reported does not mean it's true. You can just as easily find reports which details the cost of the network at $220M, which is how much the city bonded for to build it. Furthermore the sources you cite yourself clearly states that of the $330M, $111.5M was a federal grant for the smart grid. As to the smart grid project, that was a separate $232M project. https://www.smartgrid.gov/pro…

> Just because something is widely reported does not mean it's true. You can just as easily find reports which details the cost of the network at $220M, which is how much the city bonded for to build it. Furthermore the sources you cite yourself clearly states that of the $330M, $111.5M was a federal grant for the smart grid. Right, but sources say the $111.5M was used to build the fiber network that was a part of bo…

> Yes, but that's the fiber backbone underlying the residential internet service.

True, but that still does not mean you can attribute 100% of the federal smart meter grant to the fiber buildout. Even if you chose to ignore all the other investments made into the smart metering infrastructure, fiber routes built to service the electric grid (such as routes to substations) cannot be used for providing Internet service. As such it is not reasonable to attribute 100% of the $111.5M grant to EPB fiber's network.

> Sure, with the newer 83,000 subscribers figue, it's more like $4,000 rather than $5,000.

This again assumes 100% of the federal grant being used to subsidize EPB fiber. I don't think that argument has any merit, as both the Feds and the incumbents would have words if that were the case.

> The FiOS uptake rate is under 40% (and during the first decade was under 1/3).

Yes, but we aren't talking about Verizon here. EPB's take rate is somewhere between 50% and 66% (83k subs out of 120k households, but part of those 83k are businesses), so my point still stands that costs are equivalent, given the actual take rate.

> It says that's the "Average cost of hooking up new fiber optic customer for EPB." I don't take that to be the cost including construction of the network in the first place.

No, but it includes the new construction needed to hook up customers in new developments.

> Is that for debt service? That could be for shared O&M too.

"$10 million: Fiber optic system access fees and rents paid to electric system in 2014"

> Television packages are also a major revenue source. In computing the operating margin, if you exclude TV from costs you also need to exclude TV from revenues.

Yes, but TV services are usually a loss leader and a break even proposition at best. Margins would probably improve by dropping TV.

Re: Broadband left out of infrastructure goals, and how the FCC wants to fix it

#40

I'm cynical that this will bring meaningful improvement. Government has given money to telecoms before, and it's only brought us mediocre service, and brought executives huge paydays. Where's the fiber, Verizon? We (NJ and PA[0]) gave you huge tax cuts 20 years ago for universal fiber service. You and NYC agreed to provide everyone with fiber.[1] Meanwhile, AT&T keeps merging with promises that are meaningless or eve…

The telcos are running utilities and should be regulated like utilities. And they should especially be regulated this way if they are heavily subsidized build the infrastructure in the first place.
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