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EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

detroitnews.com

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Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#81
post #66

This is a disaster happening all over the country. The EPA estimates we will need $385 billion by 2030 to modernize water infrastructure. Putting municipalities in charge of utilities is basically a failed model. Municipalities are too small a unit to be able to effectively take on the long term obligations that come along with infrastructure like this, or cross subsidize from richer residents to poorer ones. Even ma…

Controversial opinion: Governments are inherently bad at managing anything that stretches beyond the next election.

So people say.

Yet in my city, for all its warts, clean water has come out of the tap since the mid 19th century, and the poop and rainwater flows away.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish that was on the table. Even still gp's point would stand that beggars have a hard time justifying being choosers.

Appreciate this moderate take. It's the cold hard truth of American capitalism, especially in places like Michigan, but it doesn't mean we can't wish for humane policies!

What does capitalism have to do with it? It's almost universally agreed that government choices were the ones at fault, and whether capitalist, socialist, whatever, cost vs. quality is still a factor.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're acting like this was forced on them from budget cuts. The city manager was warned about exactly this happening and still went ahead and did it because it was the city manager is appointed by their corrupt Republican governor [1]. The city manager should not have been able to make those decisions without a much more thorough vetting process. 1: http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2016/02/flint_wate...

The city manager was only appointed after Flint became effectively a failed city, and the state took over management. In the US, cities manage their own municipal services including water supplies. The state only intervenes when the city runs out of money to provide basic services to their inhabitants -- and this happens very rarely. If Flint had had a functioning government, the state appointees would have had nothi…

> In the US, cities manage their own municipal services including water supplies. The state only intervenes when the city runs out of money to provide basic services to their inhabitants -- and this happens very rarely.

In most of the country, if the city runs out of money, the city runs up a debt. And if the city can't pay the debt, the city goes bankrupt.

No state intervention to protect creditors. They took on the risk when they lent the money. And it is only money.

The idea that muni bond holders are so important that cities should have fiscal solutions forced on them from above to prevent a debt default?

That's a Michigan thing.

And now we know what that Michigan idea can lead to.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#84
post #5

where lead-contaminated water damaged service lines. This is wrong isn't it? My understanding is they changed water sources, which changed the pH, which resulted in lead being leeched out of pipes.

Not just the pH. The salinity too. Plain old road salt in the water messed with the calcium plaques that were protecting the pipes.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finance, in this case, is a way of framing sustainability. If your city puts out less than what it brings in, it's not sustainable.

I agree, finance is being used here as a way of framing sustainability. But it's obscuring and distorting the entire basis of economy altogether , which is living ecology. If people are denied the basic ability to improve the livability of their communities because of allegiance to global market tab sheets, then money has replaced the very thing it is meant to serve: human beings . All this talk of there not being an…

I think you're missing a lot here. The city isn't failing for lack of jobs, but for lack of jobs that produce value. A job rebuilding the infrastructure of an area is only valuable if there are other jobs from which you can tax to justify that.

If I spend $100 million to fund a trench that does nothing, it's a money sink. I've effectively thrown that money away. However, I have achieved however much employment that $100mm bought me. Until and unless that $100mm gets somebody some value, it isn't worthwhile, and as we've seen, there are very few people willing to fund completely pointless projects for no reason... even governments try to avoid it.

This is different than health care spending, or housing, or welfare -- those things (at least arguably) provide benefits. If I give someone health care for free, it's largely assumed that the cost of that health care will be offset in other ways. See the discussions on the Utah Unemployment article for examples.

But because governments are funded by tax dollars, and tax dollars are generated by earnings, until and unless people are earning moneys from outside the government that pays them, it simply isn't sustainable. Building infrastructure in the middle of nowhere is fruitless it is used as a lure for some form of money or productivity. The absence of said productivity means that, at best, you'll be revenue neutral on the funding projects and sustainable until inevitably inflation wipes everything away. Of course, to do that, the community has to be entirely self sustainable, which Flint definitely isn't.

In short, tax and spend can't work unless there's something to tax that isn't also part of the spend.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're acting like this was forced on them from budget cuts. The city manager was warned about exactly this happening and still went ahead and did it because it was the city manager is appointed by their corrupt Republican governor [1]. The city manager should not have been able to make those decisions without a much more thorough vetting process. 1: http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2016/02/flint_wate...

The city manager was only appointed after Flint became effectively a failed city, and the state took over management. In the US, cities manage their own municipal services including water supplies. The state only intervenes when the city runs out of money to provide basic services to their inhabitants -- and this happens very rarely. If Flint had had a functioning government, the state appointees would have had nothi…

In the US, cities manage their own municipal services including water supplies. The state only intervenes when the city runs out of money to provide basic services to their inhabitants -- and this happens very rarely.

In my view a city is not a sovereign nation. The political and financial structure of cities is decided by the states. If a city isn't providing basic services, it means that the state isn't providing basic services in geographic pockets of the state.

On the other hand, if this structure is really the best way of delivering municipal services, so be it. But I'm skeptical.

I see no reason why something like water service has to be managed at the municipal level. There could just be a state water service, and it could decide to manage itself by creating regional services. So far as I know, the cities aren't expected to manage delivery of electricity or natural gas.

Maybe Michigan is a failed state.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#87
post #66

This is a disaster happening all over the country. The EPA estimates we will need $385 billion by 2030 to modernize water infrastructure. Putting municipalities in charge of utilities is basically a failed model. Municipalities are too small a unit to be able to effectively take on the long term obligations that come along with infrastructure like this, or cross subsidize from richer residents to poorer ones. Even ma…

All that I know is we were able to afford the infrastructure originally under a higher tax regime. That suggests to me that we can afford to solve this problem, even if it means that the wealthy are contributing back to the country that provided the business and social environment to do so.

Most of the infrastructure was built on taking out debt based on optimistic projections of future growth. Flint and Detroit are poster children for this.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Controversial opinion: Governments are inherently bad at managing anything that stretches beyond the next election.

With that simplistic logic, public corporations are inherently​ bad at managing anything that stretches beyond the next quarter.

Short sellers exist. As do elections, but voters have far less incentive to gather and analyze relevant information.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#89
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, finance is being used here as a way of framing sustainability. But it's obscuring and distorting the entire basis of economy altogether , which is living ecology. If people are denied the basic ability to improve the livability of their communities because of allegiance to global market tab sheets, then money has replaced the very thing it is meant to serve: human beings . All this talk of there not being an…

I think you're missing a lot here. The city isn't failing for lack of jobs, but for lack of jobs that produce value. A job rebuilding the infrastructure of an area is only valuable if there are other jobs from which you can tax to justify that. If I spend $100 million to fund a trench that does nothing, it's a money sink. I've effectively thrown that money away. However, I have achieved however much employment that $…

The only things I'm missing are the points from the downvotes I keep getting in this thread.

See, the thing here is that you and I are operating with completely different definitions of the word "value". I'm insisting to you that clean water is intrinsically valuable.

Yet you impose a restriction on the supposedly free market, claiming that: "a job rebuilding the infrastructure of an area is only valuable if there are other jobs from which you can tax to justify that".

But I maintain that it needs no such justification. It's clean water.

"When the Last Tree Is Cut Down, the Last Fish Eaten, and the Last Stream Poisoned, You Will Realize That You Cannot Eat Money"

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#90
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All that I know is we were able to afford the infrastructure originally under a higher tax regime. That suggests to me that we can afford to solve this problem, even if it means that the wealthy are contributing back to the country that provided the business and social environment to do so.

Most of the infrastructure was built on taking out debt based on optimistic projections of future growth. Flint and Detroit are poster children for this.

Isn't the current trump administration plan exactly the same regarding infrastructure, with wildly unrealistic growth numbers being used to support the spending?
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