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Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

theguardian.com

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Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#81

Post by [deleted] »

divbit wrote: post #48
maxxxxx wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that Clinton communicated any of these clearly.

At risk of talking politics, for example, she spoke against Sanders plan on universal health care at an important point in the race [1]. If she later changed her stance to be for universal health care, I don't think people either realized it or believed it - basically she needed to commit to it strongly enough so that it would be politically hard to flop after winning and not do it (to gain the voters who cared about…

[deleted]

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#82

Post by maxerickson »

LordKano wrote: post #79
faet wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they had had a compelling message for the working class they could easily have won this election. So increasing minimum wage, make it easier to unionize, universal health care, protecting/expanding social security, and a bunch of other policies that would help the working class don't count? The thing is policy doesn't matter. People want 140 characters that make them feel good even if it's bad policy.

So increasing minimum wage, make it easier to unionize, universal health care, protecting/expanding social security, and a bunch of other policies that would help the working class don't count? To be honest, no. Those don't count because most of the people who consider themselves to be the "working class" would be hurt by several of them. A skilled tradesman who is making the equivalent of $25/hr doesn't want the min…

What changed about your coverage?

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#83

Post by LordKano »

thehardsphere wrote: post #29
jressey wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think people had faith that these issues were actually what the Dems wanted to go after if they'd have won. Many of these only became talking points for the establishment once it became apparent that Bernie was a threat to them. It's definitely fair to say a large share of Trump voters went with their emotions as you said, but I think a lot of folks didn't believe Hillary would enact a progressive policy. If…

> but I think a lot of folks didn't believe Hillary would enact a progressive policy. Maybe a lot of liberal folks thought that. I think there were many Trump voters who assumed that she would and they didn't want to see the country go further in that direction, and some of those voters would have preferred staying home to voting for Trump if they thought it wasn't necessary to vote for Trump to stop the country goin…

I was a reluctant Trump voter. I didn't so much vote for Trump as against Hillary.

I wouldn't have voted for Bernie either but I would have been more likely to follow my initial desire to case a protest vote for a third party candidate.

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#84

Post by LordKano »

maxerickson wrote: post #82
LordKano wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So increasing minimum wage, make it easier to unionize, universal health care, protecting/expanding social security, and a bunch of other policies that would help the working class don't count? To be honest, no. Those don't count because most of the people who consider themselves to be the "working class" would be hurt by several of them. A skilled tradesman who is making the equivalent of $25/hr doesn't want the min…

What changed about your coverage?

The plan that I had for years increased in cost by roughly 50% in one year.

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#86

Post by maxxxxx »

cnnsucks wrote: post #23
maxxxxx wrote: post #2

I am telling my Democratic friends that instead of whining about the popular vote or talking about resisting Trump in general the Democrats should develop a spine and actually stand for something. If they had had a compelling message for the working class they could easily have won this election.

"compelling message for the working class" They have a compelling message for the working class. It's a message of contempt and hate. The long marriage of the working class and Democrats has ended and it wasn't the working class that walked out the door. The Democrats are down to the comfortable professional class preening its "values" and a coalition of grievance groups. Everyone else is on the other side pulling ba…

Right on. No idea why you have been downvoted.

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#87

Post by maxander »

mcbruiser1 wrote: post #55
maxander wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the ability and optimism to work your way up without limits" is absolutely the classic American ideal, but it requires that everyone is given half a chance. If you're too poor to go to college, or can't access treatment for a debilitating illness, or subjected to racist/homophobic/whatever discrimination, you've already lost out on the American dream. Compare the "basic resources required to start working your way u…

yeah, life isn't fair and never will be. deal with it.

As it happens, I was born in a well-to-do family, given preposterously easy access to education and healthcare, and now make plenty of money in a job that I like doing. And yet I'm still capable of caring, at least ideologically, about the less fortunate. Life isn't fair and perhaps it never will be, but if you don't want it to be fair something is wrong with you.

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#88

Post by cnnsucks »

maxxxxx wrote: post #86
cnnsucks wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"compelling message for the working class" They have a compelling message for the working class. It's a message of contempt and hate. The long marriage of the working class and Democrats has ended and it wasn't the working class that walked out the door. The Democrats are down to the comfortable professional class preening its "values" and a coalition of grievance groups. Everyone else is on the other side pulling ba…

Right on. No idea why you have been downvoted.

"comfortable professional class"

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#89

Post by alpha_squared »

maxerickson wrote: post #80
alpha_squared wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how about bringing back manufacturing jobs for a start? This isn't going to happen, at least not anytime soon, though there are attempts to try[0]. America doesn't have the infrastructure to bring back manufacturing things like the iPhone[1]. > how about deregulation so employers can hire more people? Deregulation of what exactly? What's the regulation that's prohibiting "hiring more people"? > how about lowering t…

In the context of healthcare, the shared responsibility provisions are often called job killing: https://www.irs.gov/affordable-care-act/employers/questions-... It's more expensive to have 50 employees than 49. Also, a green card doesn't really expire, people overstay travel and work permits. A green card is for immigrants that have permanent permission to stay. Immigration policy certainly has lots of discretionary…

Thanks for that! I wonder if that's better solved by more logical regulation rather than deregulation.

You're right, my use of green card is incorrect -- it's visa. Green cards do expire, though, after 10 years if I'm remembering correctly (it almost happened to me).

I just looked up DACA, thanks for pointing that out. Am I misreading it on Wikipedia?[0] It doesn't seem very discretionary from that second paragraph of requirements and guidelines. That seems pretty concrete.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_Action_for_Childhood_...

Re: Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party

#90

Post by dragonwriter »

alpha_squared wrote: post #89
maxerickson wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of healthcare, the shared responsibility provisions are often called job killing: https://www.irs.gov/affordable-care-act/employers/questions-... It's more expensive to have 50 employees than 49. Also, a green card doesn't really expire, people overstay travel and work permits. A green card is for immigrants that have permanent permission to stay. Immigration policy certainly has lots of discretionary…

Thanks for that! I wonder if that's better solved by more logical regulation rather than deregulation. You're right, my use of green card is incorrect -- it's visa. Green cards do expire, though, after 10 years if I'm remembering correctly (it almost happened to me). I just looked up DACA, thanks for pointing that out. Am I misreading it on Wikipedia?[0] It doesn't seem very discretionary from that second paragraph o…

DACA itself is an exercise of executive discretion.
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