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How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

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Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#91

Post by douche »

MangentBrioche wrote: post #72
ergothus wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe that's a good example of how to get right-wing politicians to agree to some left-wing ideals: prove that it will save money and let them lower taxes. I've certainly heard this argument from the (few) libertarian sources that are considering basic income. They are opposed to "entitlement" programs, but see a (theoretically) cheaper entitlement program as better than an expensive one. (Perhaps they also think t…

UBI is being pushed by a subset of the wealthy primarily because it will be a juicy source of rent, in both the economic and colloquial senses. Every cent of UBI will be absorbed by housing costs absent the sort of regulation that would itself make UBI politically untenable (i.e. because it would not benefit the wealthy.)

In a a UBI situation, I would find the cheapest living conditions around home, then hope the Ubi would cover out-of state schools

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#93

Post by NewCathargo »

noonespecial wrote: post #83
MangentBrioche wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI is being pushed by a subset of the wealthy primarily because it will be a juicy source of rent, in both the economic and colloquial senses. Every cent of UBI will be absorbed by housing costs absent the sort of regulation that would itself make UBI politically untenable (i.e. because it would not benefit the wealthy.)

>Every cent of UBI will be absorbed by housing cost I think you're wrong about that because UBI frees people to go and live anywhere . They won't be trapped in lousy housing one bus-ride from their McJob anymore. The only way housing would suck up the entire UBI is if everyone were trapped in a California situation where new housing was impossible.

That's the best argument for UBI I've heard yet.

It gives people an option to "exit" shitty societies.

Unfortunately you'll find a good portion being spent on 20th century drugs, which suck immensely.

But if the people in power are willing to take that risk, then it might be a positive thing.

One glaring flaw is that humans are a social species and calculate rank and favors and grudges almost autonomously. Receiving your "life" from a government stooge is something of an embarrassment to men who've survived cold winters and starvation and dehydration. We like to be "equal" or "respectful" to a gift giver by having the possibility of giving back an equivalent gift.

So in a sense, you have to teach the homeless person abilities which, eventually, allow him/her to reciprocate a gift. Even if the gift was from the government.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#94

Post by ergothus »

danielweber wrote: post #74
ergothus wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe that's a good example of how to get right-wing politicians to agree to some left-wing ideals: prove that it will save money and let them lower taxes. I've certainly heard this argument from the (few) libertarian sources that are considering basic income. They are opposed to "entitlement" programs, but see a (theoretically) cheaper entitlement program as better than an expensive one. (Perhaps they also think t…

The politicians likely remember the scandal from the 1980s of Regular Joes being torn apart by aggressive IRS agents. Saying "hiring more IRS agents brings in more money than they cost" is incredibly gauche to anyone who remembers it.

But bankrupting your govt because some people aren't paying their share is self-defeating. I'm all for oversight to limit the corruption of power, but trying NOT to give power to anyone will just accept that power falls to those that are ruthless and abusive to take it regardless. In this case, those same Regular Joes are getting the short end of the stick because the govt cuts programs to benefit them because wealthy individuals and corporations have found ways to pay dramatically less in overall tax rate that those Joes are. (and those ways don't even have to be legal if the govt doesn't have the agents to enforce the rules)

And targeting "regular joes" is a terrible way to make money. The vast majority of govt income comes from the wealthy, in particular because wealth distribution is so unbalanced.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#95

Post by ensignavenger »

st3v3r wrote: post #56
douche wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was very disappointed that ordinances to restrict panhandling in medians were overturned in Portland, ME in recent years. There's no need of that. If you are willing to work, there is always work to be done for a decent wage, (although possibly less than the absurd level minimum wage has climbed to).

Anyone who claims the minimum wage level is absurd has clearly never tried to live on it.

I have in the past lived for years off of far less than the Federal minimum wage. It helped that I was healthy and didn't have any medical expenses- but the ridiculous cost of health care is a different debate...

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#96

Post by Joeri »

danielweber wrote: post #74
ergothus wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe that's a good example of how to get right-wing politicians to agree to some left-wing ideals: prove that it will save money and let them lower taxes. I've certainly heard this argument from the (few) libertarian sources that are considering basic income. They are opposed to "entitlement" programs, but see a (theoretically) cheaper entitlement program as better than an expensive one. (Perhaps they also think t…

The politicians likely remember the scandal from the 1980s of Regular Joes being torn apart by aggressive IRS agents. Saying "hiring more IRS agents brings in more money than they cost" is incredibly gauche to anyone who remembers it.

If enforcing a law properly causes abuse, then the law must be rewritten. Not enforcing laws because they're bad is compounding the problem.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#97

Post by grasshopperpurp »

ergothus wrote: post #94
danielweber wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The politicians likely remember the scandal from the 1980s of Regular Joes being torn apart by aggressive IRS agents. Saying "hiring more IRS agents brings in more money than they cost" is incredibly gauche to anyone who remembers it.

But bankrupting your govt because some people aren't paying their share is self-defeating. I'm all for oversight to limit the corruption of power, but trying NOT to give power to anyone will just accept that power falls to those that are ruthless and abusive to take it regardless. In this case, those same Regular Joes are getting the short end of the stick because the govt cuts programs to benefit them because wealth…

". . . but trying NOT to give power to anyone will just accept that power falls to those that are ruthless and abusive to take it regardless."

This is the crux, and I've never seen a good Libertarian defense against this. Someone will always fill the power void.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#98

Post by ksenzee »

Joof wrote: post #67
mabbo wrote: post #42

The 'Housing First' model was really pushed hard by Stephen Harper as Prime Minister of Canada. It was weird because he is such a staunch right-wing kind of guy, yet here he was putting money towards what seems like a very left-wing socialist idea. But he, like Lloyd Pendleton in this article, apparently figured out that it saves a lot of money, ideology be damned. Maybe that's a good example of how to get right-wing…

Hasn't worked for single payer healthcare yet. Nobody brings up that almost every other country's government pays less than the US.

a) Lots of people bring that argument up. I hear it all the time.

b) There's a difference between "the US pays" and "the US government pays".

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#99

Post by Berobero »

maxxxxx wrote: post #84
mabbo wrote: post #42

The 'Housing First' model was really pushed hard by Stephen Harper as Prime Minister of Canada. It was weird because he is such a staunch right-wing kind of guy, yet here he was putting money towards what seems like a very left-wing socialist idea. But he, like Lloyd Pendleton in this article, apparently figured out that it saves a lot of money, ideology be damned. Maybe that's a good example of how to get right-wing…

"Maybe that's a good example of how to get right-wing politicians to agree to some left-wing ideals: prove that it will save money and let them lower taxes." You could make the same case for health care. There are plenty of countries that get good quality health care at a much lower cost for the country but somehow in the US it's impossible to learn from that. I always though the US is a pragmatic country but over th…

>> plenty of countries that get good quality health care at a much lower cost for the country

"Plenty", as in effectively every other comparable developed country, and "good quality" as in consistently better than the US on virtually every metric. Dan Carlin, the podcaster, devoted his most recent show (http://www.dancarlin.com/product/common-sense-314-unhealthy-...) to this topic; it felt like an impassioned plea directed at his reportedly strong libertarian base of followers.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#100

Post by jdormit »

nsnick wrote: post #25
austenallred wrote: post #8

I'm confused by this. My brother has an office in downtown SLC near the Rio Grande building, and it's pretty clear when I visit him that there are hundreds of homeless people living in that neighborhood alone. Pioneer Park is also covered in homeless people. If that is less than 200 people either I don't understand what "homeless" means or something is... off. How does one define "chronic homelessness?" I really want…

Salt Lake City has a lot of seasonal homeless, people who come for the summer and leave for the winter. Seasonal homeless are not counted as chronic homeless. There are no homeless people anywhere else in the state so the ones you see in Salt Lake are it. Not all panhandlers are homeless. Most of the homeless in Salt Lake City seem to disappear at night. There are no massive homeless camps like you see in San Francis…

Have you ever driven by the streets next to Pioneer park downtown? On a certain street by the homeless shelter it's basically Tent City
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