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Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

1843magazine.com

421–430 of 535 posts

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#421

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> What are the hours and benefits like for long haul trucking? I'd imagine it's not a job widely available in West Virginia or areas where there is mass unemployment. The benefits are like any other salaried position, and the hours are restricted by federal mandate for safety reasons. The one downside is being away from home for extended periods of time, but... y'know... it's a job; if it were easy it wouldn't pay we…

>Millennials are living at home with their Baby Boomer parents, playing video games and avoiding the harsh realities of adult life This is a terrible strawman and it really discredits the rest of the argument you're making. I'm a millennial and I don't know anyone like you're describing. >labor shortage in the trades Every time you hear "labor shortage" you need to add "at the offered salary/wage"--they need to offer…

> This is a terrible strawman and it really discredits the rest of the argument you're making.

Uh.. did you even read the article we're commenting on? I'm speaking directly to its main thesis. If you're making a claim about it being a straw man, take it up with the author.

> I'm a millennial and I don't know anyone like you're describing.

And I'm a millennial too and I know plenty of people like the one I'm describing.

> Every time you hear "labor shortage" you need to add "at the offered salary/wage"--they need to offer more money.

It's not that simple. Many of the industries experiencing labor shortages are labor intensive and there are limits to the amount they can increase wages and remain economically viable.

> Why do you think people would rather work a minimum wage job than take your advice? You offer literally no explanation and just make claims without any evidence. You are speaking from opinion, not fact.

Frankly, Millennials aren't as money-motivated as previous generations were. They choose to accept the stigma of staying at home with their parents or working low wage service jobs over the life of a blue-collar worker. I don't even really fault them for it; money ain't everything. But they have to lie in the bed they make for themselves. They can't both live a bohemian lifestyle free from responsibility and have all the trappings of life that hard work provides.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes wonder if there are Neo-Nazis out there who argue that Hitlers regime was not real National Socialism.

The "interesting" thing about capitalism is that it kills millions of people every year and people defending it don't need to say that this isn't real capitalism. It is. And it made it common to die, kill and fight wars for money and resources.

> The "interesting" thing about capitalism is that it kills millions of people every year and people defending it don't need to say that this isn't real capitalism.

Actually, defenders of capitalism, when confronted with problems attributed to it, frequently argue that the problems are "the State" or "crony capitalism", and that the problems would not exist with "real capitalism".

Of course, both the State and cronyism are features of the system for which the name "capitalism" was coined by its critics, but that doesn't stop the defenders of capitalism for saying that those are separate and opposed things to "real capitalism".

> And it made it common to die, kill and fight wars for money and resources.

That was common long before capitalism.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#423

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Even if that's the case, is that a bad thing? Should we not have the freedom to spend our own time as we please in a post-scarcity society?

I keep hearing that term lately...but nobody can explain to me how post scarcity is even possible

It's not possible; human desires are infinite for all practical purposes and physical matter is inherently scarce. Have a great house? A car? A plane? Great... now, how about a spaceship?

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing that term lately...but nobody can explain to me how post scarcity is even possible

It's not possible; human desires are infinite for all practical purposes and physical matter is inherently scarce. Have a great house? A car? A plane? Great... now, how about a spaceship?

Well, its about marketing. Used to be we dreamed of flying cars and going to Mars (1950's science fiction). Jobs got us programmed to anticipate a little more RAM, a bigger screen and more colorful icons. Just dumb down the consumerism and there you are.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#425
post #171

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What you're describing (low taxes as an incentive to work) is a libertarian argument for small government. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it's the opposite of UBI which requires a per capita tax equal to the per capita basic income.

No, it's very different. Let's say I'm getting $100 worth of benefits a day (makes the math easier) And let's say I could do a days work and make $100, but I'd lose $90 worth of benefits. That extra $10 may not be worth a days work. With UBI you'd get that same $100, but if you took that days work you'd get an extra $100 (minus tax, let's say 20%). Now you're reward for that days work is $80. The UBI system taxes hig…

Most welfare systems don't have a cliff where you lose more than you earn; they phase out. For example, in the US, the child tax credit is reduced by $50 for every $1,000 earned above a threshold, so the phaseout is a 5% "tax" on income in that range rather than being a welfare cliff.

A phase-out reduces effective hourly wage, which theoretically reduces the incentive to work. That's no different than any other kind of marginal tax rate, though, and UBI would require a high marginal tax rate.

Probably the best argument UBI is to replace current welfare systems with one cash payment because, in addition to theoretically reducing administrative costs, it would make phase-outs easier to understand. If there are welfare recipients who misunderstand when benefits apply, they might not want to obtain additional income even though it would benefit them.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that's the case, is that a bad thing? Should we not have the freedom to spend our own time as we please in a post-scarcity society?

I keep hearing that term lately...but nobody can explain to me how post scarcity is even possible

Its about basic human necessities, not some hunkydoodle future where everything is infinite for everybody.

So, food clothing shelter and maybe entertainment. Hey! We're already there - those things take a tiny fraction of the population to produce for everybody. Mostly automated from start to finish.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you and others on HN also need to consider a very critical issue on game design: SKinner boxes posing as games. While youth unemployment in itself generates flight/distraction direct behavior, game designers themselves are creating absolutely unethical skinner boxes which will generate addictive behavior. This is like dumping a slot machine into the hands (literally) of vulnerable children/young adults (also…

This comment totally needs to be higher. Every other comment on this thread makes little to no mention of "Skinner Box Design", when design tactics like these are almost certainly the #1 factor for creating video game addicts. The issues we're discussing in this thread start with the game designer. Cognitive flow is a real thing, and game designers have learned through decades of research and testing how to put playe…

Also a game designer here (and programmer). I think you should be clear that a game designer is not always the one who makes the decisions on how to monetize a game. Often it's the people who are in charge of financing the game's development, i.e. publishers or executives.

In fact, often game designers would rather not do this pay to win crap, although it's hard to ignore that it does seem to be the primary way people are willing to give you money in certain markets nowadays (mobile especially), and they would like to keep making games for a living, instead of making one game while ignoring current market trends, the game failing spectacularly, and the company shuts down as a result (I've worked for three game studios which have done basically exactly that, although two of them did try making free to play games eventually and still failed).

I would love to make mobile games where I just charge $1-3 and still see success, but the stats just do not back it up. Yes, there are people who have successes that way, but they are either much larger, much more networked in the industry and know how to get a ton of media coverage (Just getting 'some' coverage is not enough. I've worked on games that have gotten 'some' media coverage. They've done poorly), or have worked on something so beautiful and compelling people feel they have to share it with others (Monument Valley comes to mind).

I've actually mostly given up on video games right now and I'm focusing more on board games, where it's much easier to actually charge money for what you produce, since there's a physical component to it. That industry has exploded in the last 5 years also and it's starting to get harder to find success there as well, but I'm more passionate about that right now. Plus there's the bonus that you can make a video game version of your board game and existing fans would be willing to pay money for your app, as well as some cross-promotion between the two.

Personally I don't think there's a problem trying to make your game as fun as possible (and fun and addiction are very closely linked) as a designer, you almost have to in order to get people to talk about and share your game.

It's when you actively try to snare people into giving you a constant feed of money for virtual benefits that I think is a bit dodgy, but again the public has already voted with their wallet and said they won't download a mobile game unless it's free, so game developers/publishers have to get money for the game somehow.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know what a sad cliche this nonsense is? You're just repeating the same tired, red-pill gamergate nonsense.

What is the difference between "cliche" and "same, tired," and "tried-and-true"? (That is a rhetorical question, but the reader is encouraged to answer it for themselves as an exercise). There is a nearly irresistible temptation for people reading comments like the grandparent to engage in tribal thinking. "I'm against being a dick to women," they think, "This guy, who shows signs of being a dick to women, therefore…

a) Just for the record, I'm not a fan of being a "dick" (more on that below) towards women. My thought-crime was merely pointing out how gaming communities insult everybody equally and don't just insult women because they are women. I would have thought that a community like HN would understand that this was an explanation of what I believe happens, not an endorsement.

b) I'd like to make a mild observation. You used the phrase "dick" to mean a synonym for rude or disgusting behavior, and nobody batted an eye. Can anybody guess how the usual suspects would react if somebody whose ideas they disliked used "pussy" as a pejorative? It's an interesting thought experiment.

c) I'm not sure where your ideas or philosophy is at, but I appreciate your observations here and your willingness to at least advocate openness to ideas you may disagree with.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#429
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sort of did this with Second Life when I was in my teens, logging on daily to have fun and hang out and also to script/build/sell things for real money, answer support requests in-world and so on. I don't go on nearly as much as I used to, but I still draw some passive income from my store there.

I was always curious about 2nd life but never tried it and I'm not sure why. What year was your store's peak revenue? Where do you think most 2nd lifers went? Is there a viable successor these days, maybe in its early stages?

Don't know about parent's store, but SL's peak year was 2009: http://taterunino.net/statcharts/mo_cmedian400full.jpg

My guess is most "2nd lifers" still among the living (people with disabilities and medical conditions seem to be overrepresented among users; death announcements are not uncommon) are still around, they just log on less frequently and spend more time in other online worlds.

The obvious successors in the works are Linden Lab's own Sansar,

https://www.sansar.com/

and SL cofounder Rosedale's High Fidelity:

https://highfidelity.com/

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caymans and investments. Most of those geared for quick and high returns, not sustainability, improving society or long term job creation.

I would argue that public securities and the stock market is exactly what provides sustainability and long term job creation.

Wrong. The stock market doesn't care about job creation. They care about wealth creation, which is mostly concentrated in the hands of a few. In fact, wall street loves when firms lay off workers. If every firm out there laid off 50% or their workers the price of stocks would greatly increase, because then more money would go directly to the hands of shareholders.
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