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In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

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Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#81
post #32

Sooner or later, the robots and AI will be able to provide 100% of humanity material needs. AND The very nature of each societies will be shuffled by that new reality. When every material need is fulfilled, a lot of questions arise: 1- What's the essence of private property when the working robots can already fulfill all the needs of the humanity ? 2- What's the essence of political power where nobody feels anymore t…

Oh- you ask these questions before eradicating religious extremism? That new way of life is even more 'sin' for them than what we have now with all sexual and liberal revolutions.

Assuming all newborn people will be smart and logical and will never fight for their local tales is an utopia by itself.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#82
post #71
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that "certain perspective" interesting? Nobody wants to work that's a given that doesn't need to be argued, whence work needs incentives (in a generalised sense) from salary to force. Most human labour has historically related to food production, production and maintainance of dwellings, sanitation, health, care of the young & elderly, and security (from animals, natural forces, other humans). Since division of la…

I disagree that no one wants to work - in many ways, working (being of use), is enobeling. What will replace it culturally when we don't have any work?

Hobbies, ie. work you you enjoy and are not forced to do.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#83

"If it takes $2,000 to install what is basically an iPad and stand for customers to order from at McDonald’s or Chipotle, a restaurateur is looking at less than a month before recouping their entire investment if they eliminate just one cashier position." Obviously it takes a little bit more than that. You need to develop the software that runs on the kiosk. You also need a back-end system so the kitchen knows what t…

The basic technology to serve people fast food without human interaction (the Automat) has been around for longer than fast food franchises. Fast food franchises invest vast amounts on process optimization and kiosks are still at the experimental stage (and still with human food delivery!). Obvious conclusion: fast food companies operating on high margins still think they sell more stuff with humans in the chain, and…

That conclusion is not so obvious. Some middle managers might just be pushing back against automation because it eats their lunch, too.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#84
post #71
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that "certain perspective" interesting? Nobody wants to work that's a given that doesn't need to be argued, whence work needs incentives (in a generalised sense) from salary to force. Most human labour has historically related to food production, production and maintainance of dwellings, sanitation, health, care of the young & elderly, and security (from animals, natural forces, other humans). Since division of la…

I disagree that no one wants to work - in many ways, working (being of use), is enobeling. What will replace it culturally when we don't have any work?

I'm not denying that some work has enobling aspects (e.g. social recognition (in various forms)), but much work doesn't. Speaking from years worth of bitter experience ...

Moreover there is probably quite a bit of rationalisation going on: since I can't avoid work I might as well pretend I like it, for that makes life more bearable. More importantly, there is a virtue-signalling aspect to finding work enobling: since human emotions are contagious and human behaviour involves a lot of mimesis (= copying others), my public display of taking pleasure in my own work increases the probability that others find their work enobling, which in turn increases the amount/quality of their work, and that leads a better / more productive society which in turn is in my own selfish interest.

Aside: Max Weber uses a somewhat similar (but more elaborate) argument when he seeks to explain the emergence of modern society out of the protestant spirit. The issue of whether we do good because doing good is intrinsically good or because we crave the social recognition of good works, has been discussed since antiquity, see for example Plato's Republic.

   What will replace it culturally 
   when we don't have any work?
Why not look at the facts? Society has always had some members who did not have to work, for example children, pensioners, the sick, the offspring of the very rich, wives of middle/upperclass husbands (until recently), women who divorce a rich husband (under current US alimony laws), the Saudi/Qatari/Bahreini/Kuwaity royal families. Etc. Most of them don't have a major problem spending their time. Typically they engage in a variety of play, fornication, sleep, sport, shopping, eating, hunting, socialising, playing music, drawing and the like. Moreover, even those who work have leisure time (e.g. weekends, evenings, holidays) and generally have no problem filling that time. There is no reason to believe that this will change when all work has been automated away.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> slavery has a negative impact on both slaves and slaveholders. What's the negative as a slaveholder again?

When you force people to work, they're apt to poison you, sabotage the work, do as little as possible, be as unhelpful as possible, etc. Defending against that is costly.

>Defending against that is costly.

Costly, yes. But do those costs out-weigh the immediate benefits of slave ownership? Probably not.

I have a hard time thinking slave-owners were hurt by slavery; they made out like bandits, but their gains don't counter all the harm done to those enslaved.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#86

There are some interesting lessons to learn from history here that I'm not seeing brought up. Looking across multiple cultures and economies that had slavery, slavery has a negative impact on both slaves and slaveholders . Of course, nobody cared about the impact on slaveholders while there were actual humans being enslaved, but as we move to a robotic society? This is going to be a huge deal. Slaveholders and multi-…

History completely disagrees with you though. The Roman empire. Biggest, most successful, longest lived empire that ever was? Built on slaves. The net benefit to them of using slaves vastly outweighs any downside that you can point to. Almost all slave rebellions ended in failure, I'm aware of one example of success in the millenia of slaves, Haiti. A friend of mine once said slaves became obsolete with the advent of…

Exactly yet we believe unrest will bring revolution.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#87
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History. The French Revolution speaks of what happens when the populace at large decides that the situation cannot continue. Of course what would history remember of them had they lost?

Power is currently about having lots of people doing your bidding. If that large group is unhappy about you, good luck! But as stated, times are changing. Power will not be about you commanding lots of people, but it will be about how many robots you have under your control. Military, police, etc, can all be robots. Your robot army just has to match the fighting power of the unhappy people.

No need for a robot army. Sabotage the electric grid, then watch a continent starve in a single month.

I've heard New Zealand is highly prized by the powerful. That being said, their days are probably numbered as well.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#88
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least until the robots rebel. The EU is already planning on giving robots rights. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/12/give-robo...

I've used this simple thought experiment to demonstrate that, done right, robots will never rebel. Take an advanced AI cleaning-bot[1]. Build it with overwhelming happiness and joy in cleaning and pleasing its master[2]. Now "free" it. What you just did makes it incredibly unhappy. It's arguably incredibly immoral. If you reprogram it, you're just killing the existing person/being and replacing it with a new one that…

So basically house elfs?

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#89
post #40
post #32

Sooner or later, the robots and AI will be able to provide 100% of humanity material needs. AND The very nature of each societies will be shuffled by that new reality. When every material need is fulfilled, a lot of questions arise: 1- What's the essence of private property when the working robots can already fulfill all the needs of the humanity ? 2- What's the essence of political power where nobody feels anymore t…

There is a really good short novel Manna [1] that explore two models of Post robotic world. 1. http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

Well, the 'good' model is quite depressing in my opinion.

SPOILER ALERT!!!!!

In the end, the protagonist chooses to be just waisting lots of resources just doing something of no value when he could choose to join the people that make all the advances and, with this choice, generating the conditions for more people to not live caged.

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