Live data from Hacker News

Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

1843magazine.com

311–320 of 535 posts

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#311
I played A LOT of competitive Magic: The Gathering from about age 14-21. We used to call it "cardboard crack" so we all understood that the game was addictive. I had a lot of fun and met some great people, but even back then I knew that I had a problem with the game and that I was addicted to it. This was before people talked about gaming addiction and I don't think American society understood that it could actually be a serious issue. I knew people who got addicted to EverQuest (aka EverCrack) and watched them go MIA for six months at a time from the Magic scene and drop out of high school to play EverQuest for 12 hours a day. This was back in 1999, so gaming addiction definitely isn't new.

I found that gaming addiction becomes self-reinforcing once you start putting a significant number of hours into gaming. Once you spend enough time gaming you'll end up not having enough hours to fulfill your real world commitments, like studying. Not fulfilling your real world commitments will cause you stress (failing a test) and you'll seek relief by going back to gaming. This can become a vicious cycle quickly as the more you game to relieve your stress, the more stress you end up creating for yourself by having even less time to fulfill your real world obligations.

The kids I knew who had the most unstable families were the ones who paid the highest price for their gaming addiction and ended up not graduating from high school. So I'm not surprised that unemployed young men who have unstable professional lives are getting hit hard by gaming addiction now. I hope they can break the cycle. I burned off a lot of hours playing Magic and I do sometimes wonder what could have come of that time if it had been spent elsewhere.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#312

It's not just video games either. Add Netflix and social media, and soon, VR, to the equation, and it's pretty clear that the game of life offers insufficient rewards relative to one's efforts. I don't believe we ended up here due to some grand conspiracy, but I do think that the top 1% have gotten so skilled at trapping wealth and therefore opportunity that it's really screwing over everyone else. Even as a relative…

It's already not ending well. A seemingly sizable and growing fraction of these disaffected largely male unemployed or under-employed people are embracing full-blown fascism and other equally unhinged ideologies. Look into the intersection between online alt-right / neo-Nazi trolldom and the gamer/4chan/etc. orbit.

Humans don't like to live in zoos and alternate realities are ultimately unfulfilling.

I agree about your causal analysis too: the top of the pyramid have become so good at locking down wealth and power that they're closing the world down for everyone else. If this continues it will end very badly. We have nuclear weapons, drones, AI, and total surveillance, all of which are waiting for a truly unhinged demagogue to come to power.

World War III. Now there's a way to get out from under your student loans.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the thing UBI prevents. A large benefit of a UBI compared to the status quo is that it reduces marginal tax rates on low income people. Right now you can get a lot of assistance if you have little to no income, but if you make a dollar you lose 90 cents in benefits. Who wants to work for 10 cents on the dollar? With a UBI you make a dollar and you keep most of it, so there is more incentive to work.

How does a UBI prevent this? The people described in the article don't seem to want more money. They want to play video games. Giving them enough money to live off of would allow them to do exactly that while producing nothing of benefit to society. Right now, at least, some of them seem marginally productive (contractors, the cashier, etc). Utility, as a function of money, generally has a negative second derivative…

Most readers here have significant flexibility in our work schedules and choice of jobs. But right now, I take on an extra responsibilities and an extra 10 hours a week over the regular 40 hours in the hopes of getting a promotion and a ~15% raise. This flies flatly in the face of a sublinear utility to income relationship. And I choose this even though I could easily move to a less intense or part-time job.

What's your theory to explain these choices? They're not crazy, and if anything are more typical than atypical. Some personal hypotheses, all of which except the last would counteract a UBI work disincentive:

1) In terms of labor choices, you've got to view utility primarily as a function of status, not income. Status is a positional good and, within a given profession, is highly correlated with income. So although I'm chasing a relatively small bump in salary, it will give outsize gains in utility.

2) Putting extra work in now is best viewed as investing in your own human capital, as a promotion isn't a permanent gold star for delivering on a project but instead supposed to recognize an increase in your human capital. That kind of increase in human capital provides lifelong excess monetary returns that exceed the decreasing marginal utility of money.

3) The increasing concentration of wealth accruing to the most productive workers means that income is in some kind of power law relationship with work effort.

4) The extra utility of a promotion is coming primarily from non-monetary effects, such as more autonomy in work and ability to work on more interesting problems.

5) Some combination of 1-4 exist and are valid, but they only have a significant effect on work effort toward the higher end of the income spectrum. A cashier boy doesn't gain any real status with a fifty cent raise, and the most-skilled and hardest working barista is not bringing home millions of dollars. Their work-for-utility functions are dominated by the effect of beer money, and the tenth beer is never as good as the first.

If 5) is true, a UBI would, of course, result in a significant increase in voluntary unemployment. I'm not sure it's even really a bad thing, though it'd be good to have a sense of how large the effect is and where it kicks in, which would have to be an empirical question.

I wonder if there'd be a significant gender split in how a UBI acts as a [dis]incentive to work.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#314
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, we (Americans at least, I hear Russians are quite a bit higher) aren't drinking much these days: ~2.25 gallons of pure alcohol a year. Compared to 6.6 gallons in 1770 [1] and 7.1 gallons in 1870 [2] (thus igniting the calls for Prohibition). [1] http://www.motherearthnews.com/real-food/moonshine-whiskey-i... [2] http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31741615

There is a big non-drinking movement amongst young people in Russia right now. Putin, love or hate him, has passed on an attitude to his young followers. I'm reminded of an interview with a British soccer hooligan about confrontations with Russian hooligans: "It's not fair when the other team is sober!"

People still drink in Russia, but it's much less about drinking their brain out and much more about socializing and sipping quality liquor.

Don't end up wasted except by accident. People usually drink in company, which acts as moderator.

This compared with Sovied men from 70-s and 80-s which would drink any alcohol-containing liquid immediately without even asking themself "why".

I don't think it's Putin related, not even economy related so much, it's just return to normalcy after a century of Soviet experiment.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#315
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Confirmation bias? Just because it worked for you, doesn't mean there aren't a thousand people who tried and failed at exactly the same thing. Your chances are definitely higher than zero if you try, but unfortunately it's no guarantee that you'll succeed.

There is no guarantee for anything. That is not a reason not to try. There is literally nothing better to do with your life than try. So just try.

this comment is what a lifetime of philosophical thought, traveling, psychedelics, meditation, and experimentation has led me to as well.

"there is literally nothing better to do with your life than try. so just try."

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much did you save before you retired?

I have a $20K passive income of and living expenses of $10K. My hobbies are really cheap and centered around building skills. Programming / construction / sports. I do miss my friends in SF though. That's the biggest downside. I've been trying to encourage more to come down.

20Kpa?

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are they going to invest the money they have in though? People who play computer games and watch Netflix all day? Probably not hey. If you want any chance you're going to have to do something. At least try something.

Enough with this. People who have money are not investing in productive things. They are mostly investing in hedge funds to play the market for the short term as a lottery, or in merger/acquisitions, which kills more jobs than creates. They also put money in assets like real estate that have their prices inflated because of the big rise in money looking for safe investments. When investors do something productive, it…

alternate theory. people who have money are desperately looking for things with potential for big returns. if you are one of those things or create one of those things there is more money looking for you than has ever looked for anyone in the history of the world.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#318

It's not just video games either. Add Netflix and social media, and soon, VR, to the equation, and it's pretty clear that the game of life offers insufficient rewards relative to one's efforts. I don't believe we ended up here due to some grand conspiracy, but I do think that the top 1% have gotten so skilled at trapping wealth and therefore opportunity that it's really screwing over everyone else. Even as a relative…

It's like the world is catching up to Japan and its problems: slow growth, deep government debt, ballooning social entitlement spending, and un/under-employed youth. This is just like the Japanese Neets.

I've been predicting "planet Japan" for years due to slowing population growth, resource constraints, and market saturation.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, the young men will much prefer sex robots anyway. Relationship dynamics, freed of men needing human women to fulfil their sexual urges, are gonna get weird.

Yep. And then the birth rate will fall off a cliff. Your sex robot will always be enthusiastic, and fulfill about 85% of what you want out of sex. Maybe not the human connection, but at least on par with a one night stand. Will we even develop romantic relationships then? It's going to get soooo weird!

    > And then the birth rate will
    > fall off a cliff
I'm not convinced. One male can seed an awful lot of women, even before artificial insemination is considered

    > Will we even develop romantic
    > relationships then?
I'm sure of it, it'll just be a very different dynamic to right now. Same-sex pairings will go up dramatically, I think; I know many people who prefer company of the same sex, but have no sexual interest in them.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#320
post #237

As a teenager and early-20-something I was video-game obsessed, dropping out of sports and university, and wondering why anyone would want to devote their life to anything as pedestrian as a realistic career. At 30 I've realized how harsh and cruel the world and its people (not everyone, but many) can be, which is the primary motivation for making some big changes in my life away from video games.

As a counterpoint: When I was 20, I had a great job and was happy with my lot in life, certain that everything was going to be okay. I was going to continue working in the public library, get the Assistant job, spin that into my MLS, and take up a Reference Librarian position. I just turned 30 last week. The bottom dropped out of my world when the budget focus shifted to a strongly anti-education agenda when I was 23…

> only thing keeping me from jumping in front of a train.

Hey man don't say that. Despite what you may think, you are valued and important. If you're feeling suicidal, Please call this hotline 1-800-273-8255.

Post reply on HN