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Anthony Bourdain on not having debt

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Re: Anthony Bourdain on not having debt

#281

Post by ianai »

jMyles wrote: post #258
ianai wrote: post #47

There was a point where financing the government was a patriotic act. People would give other people War Bonds as presents. But now the patriotic thing is to trash talk which ever party is in the administration and wax poetic about governmental corruption. You can't have it both ways. You can't say no to financing your government and scorn corruption. Either you're okay paying for your government, you're okay with so…

It seems like you have omitted the scenario that seems most likely by dint of the evolution of the internet: not needing a government at all.

Defecting from the government is not an option.

Re: Anthony Bourdain on not having debt

#282

Post by jlebar »

rsync wrote: post #242
tinco wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

every 60 minutes I work, ~30 minutes of that work product is appropriated by government How about every 60 minutes you work, 30 minutes of that is spent establishing the world around you? From the opportunities you had as a young person, and those of your children, to the safety and security of your adult life. Half of your product is yours to spend freely, the rest goes towards the idea that you don't even have to t…

"How about every 60 minutes you work, 30 minutes of that is spent establishing the world around you?" I am perfectly happy to look at it that way, and indeed I do . Please don't deploy the "I'm arguing with the anti-tax guy" toolkit here - I am not that guy. The problem I have, and that I think many people have, is that fraction: 30/60 = 1/2 = getting a bit silly. YMMV.

The problem I have, and that I think many people have, is that fraction: 30/60 = 1/2 = getting a bit silly.

But why? I mean, are you just rationalizing? "I think 50% taxes is a lot just because I do, therefore I think it's bad policy." Or is there a logical reason that 50% is "a bit silly" but, say, 30% (or whatever your number is) is fine?

This is something that Nobel prize-winning economists fight over -- exactly how high a tax rate is too high? -- so I kind of doubt we're going to resolve it here on HN. My point is that we all have feelings ("I don't like the color mauve", "50% taxes rubs me the wrong way"), but these have to be separate from motives for enacting policy.

Re: Anthony Bourdain on not having debt

#283

Post by JustAnotherPat »

rsync wrote: post #242
tinco wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

every 60 minutes I work, ~30 minutes of that work product is appropriated by government How about every 60 minutes you work, 30 minutes of that is spent establishing the world around you? From the opportunities you had as a young person, and those of your children, to the safety and security of your adult life. Half of your product is yours to spend freely, the rest goes towards the idea that you don't even have to t…

"How about every 60 minutes you work, 30 minutes of that is spent establishing the world around you?" I am perfectly happy to look at it that way, and indeed I do . Please don't deploy the "I'm arguing with the anti-tax guy" toolkit here - I am not that guy. The problem I have, and that I think many people have, is that fraction: 30/60 = 1/2 = getting a bit silly. YMMV.

what about passive income i.e. 0/60? Should that be taxed at 99% since you're not spending any time working for it? Conflating time worked with a tax rate seems like a red herring to me.

Re: Anthony Bourdain on not having debt

#284

Post by comice »

tyleraldrich wrote: post #257
comice wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes do not finance the US government. The US government creates money to finance itself. Taxes destroy money (and create demand for dollars, which is important :) Hyperinflation doesn't happen when there is too much money, it happens when there isn't enough stuff to buy with it. Lots of ignorance of monetary theory on HN!

> Taxes do not finance the US government. The US government creates money to finance itself. Source for this claim? I've never heard this before and it sounds quite absurd.

Well in a nutshell, the US government makes the money. It can never run out. So it isn't dependent on tax revenue to spend.

So the limitations on spending are elsewhere.

This is a good intro:

http://elliswinningham.net/index.php/the-basics/us-currency-... http://elliswinningham.net/index.php/the-basics/us-currency-... http://elliswinningham.net/index.php/the-basics/us-currency-...

Also maybe:

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=9281

A rant on deficits:

http://elliswinningham.net/index.php/2017/01/10/deficits-mat...

For more, just look up modern monetary theory.

Re: Anthony Bourdain on not having debt

#285

Post by jlebar »

faceyspacey wrote: post #251
tinco wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

every 60 minutes I work, ~30 minutes of that work product is appropriated by government How about every 60 minutes you work, 30 minutes of that is spent establishing the world around you? From the opportunities you had as a young person, and those of your children, to the safety and security of your adult life. Half of your product is yours to spend freely, the rest goes towards the idea that you don't even have to t…

Except for here in the states 25% of the taxpayer money is going to military, intelligence and debt from past wars we know to have been bad ideas and knew all along were bad ideas. And let's just say another 25% is misspent. In a country this big and bloated, that's also likely a low ball figure. But overall, only 50% of taxpayer money is going to anything remotely properly executed and needed. That said, our public…

On what basis do you think that you think you can write off 25% of non-military non-debt government spending? Is that just a hunch?

I would suggest trying it sometime. Look at the US government budget, and try to cut out 25% of it. It is a lot harder than just getting rid of "bloat".

I can believe that some people might be able to find 25% that they personally don't care about. Maybe you don't drive, so (you think) you don't care about highways. Or, you're not poor, so you don't care about medicaid. And so on. But could you cut 25% of the federal budget without causing a large fraction of the American populace to become very, very angry (and vote you out of office, git reset --hard your budget in two years, etc)?

I don't mean to say that the government could not be more efficient. It certainly could. But 25% of the budget is a lot of money, and not everyone has the same priorities as you.

Re: Anthony Bourdain on not having debt

#286

Post by jlebar »

tmaly wrote: post #263
rsync wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nobody likes paying high taxes, but I don’t mind." I think there's an important distinction to be made between two different sorts of "high taxes". One is a high absolute amount of taxes - you made millions of dollars in a year and therefore your absolute tax payment is relatively quite high. The other is a high percentage tax rate. I don't mind paying a high absolute rate of taxes - I think that is the scenario in…

I feel the same. I would have no problem with this rate, but I would like to see some things done better. How money is spent, how gov contracts are given out. It feels like there is a huge amount of money lost on inefficient markets and efforts.

It feels like there is a huge amount of money lost on inefficient markets and efforts.

It's a feeling. But is it reality? That's a question for spreadsheets and numbers, not our feelings.

Are there countries that are 25% more efficient in government spending than the US? If so, how do they do it?

Re: Anthony Bourdain on not having debt

#288

Post by devy »

tinco wrote: post #209
rsync wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nobody likes paying high taxes, but I don’t mind." I think there's an important distinction to be made between two different sorts of "high taxes". One is a high absolute amount of taxes - you made millions of dollars in a year and therefore your absolute tax payment is relatively quite high. The other is a high percentage tax rate. I don't mind paying a high absolute rate of taxes - I think that is the scenario in…

every 60 minutes I work, ~30 minutes of that work product is appropriated by government How about every 60 minutes you work, 30 minutes of that is spent establishing the world around you? From the opportunities you had as a young person, and those of your children, to the safety and security of your adult life. Half of your product is yours to spend freely, the rest goes towards the idea that you don't even have to t…

> How about every 60 minutes you work, 30 minutes of that is spent establishing the world around you?

Sure, if by "establishing the world around you" means government spending on fighting climate change, supporting clean energy initiatives and helping the underserved people instead of spending on wars, on weapons; AND everyone pays the same rate including our current president, then YES!

Re: Anthony Bourdain on not having debt

#289

Post by m_eiman »

digler999 wrote: post #207
rsync wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nobody likes paying high taxes, but I don’t mind." I think there's an important distinction to be made between two different sorts of "high taxes". One is a high absolute amount of taxes - you made millions of dollars in a year and therefore your absolute tax payment is relatively quite high. The other is a high percentage tax rate. I don't mind paying a high absolute rate of taxes - I think that is the scenario in…

I agree with you. The poor can be affected by this as well, in the case of fines. A $150 speeding ticket isn't more of an inconvenience to most of us, but a poor person could be ruined by it. Nobody should escape consequences entirely, but I think the poor should be given some exemption from the governments iron-fist policy with fines, penalty fees, and bench warrants when you dont pay them.

There's a simple solution: here in Scandinavia at lot of monetary punishments are based on your income. E.g. your speeding ticket costs you a week's pay.

(Yes, tax evaders get off too easy with this system)

Re: Anthony Bourdain on not having debt

#290

Post by braveo »

jlebar wrote: post #282
rsync wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How about every 60 minutes you work, 30 minutes of that is spent establishing the world around you?" I am perfectly happy to look at it that way, and indeed I do . Please don't deploy the "I'm arguing with the anti-tax guy" toolkit here - I am not that guy. The problem I have, and that I think many people have, is that fraction: 30/60 = 1/2 = getting a bit silly. YMMV.

The problem I have, and that I think many people have, is that fraction: 30/60 = 1/2 = getting a bit silly. But why ? I mean, are you just rationalizing? "I think 50% taxes is a lot just because I do, therefore I think it's bad policy." Or is there a logical reason that 50% is "a bit silly" but, say, 30% (or whatever your number is) is fine? This is something that Nobel prize-winning economists fight over -- exactly…

You're only 1/2 way away from slave labor at that point.

And when you factor in other taxes, you pay more than 50%, it's too much.

And if I choose not to pay those taxes, my freedom is taken away, so don't tell me the slave point is invalid.

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