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Tesla to raise $1B

ir.tesla.com

311–320 of 334 posts

Re: Tesla to raise $1B

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't recall Musk being a Trump supporter. He is working with Trump, but that is not the same thing. He has stated that he thinks it's better if the President has good people advising him, regardless of how one thinks of their policies. TSLA is really volatile. The market cap is absurdly larger than the company's actual assets, meaning investors are banking on massive future growth. Going from $195 to $256 isn't th…

>He has stated that he thinks it's better if the President has good people advising him, regardless of how one thinks of their policies. Yes. Everything I do, I do it for you... I think Elon's Paypal experience has taught him how gullible the general public is, and is using that experience to good effect today..

Even if you don't believe him, the fact remains that joining an advisory council is not the same as lending support. So unless there's something else he's done that actually indicates support for Trump, it's a baseless claim.

Re: Tesla to raise $1B

#312
post #288

Tesla looks like they will lose that cool new thing vibe soon, the novelty of an electric car will wear off - especially when porsche or benz come out with an electric sedan or coupe. These companies will offer a much more compelling product with the ownership value that people expect from a luxury car company. I have shopped a model S and besides the electric drivetrain it is not really that nice of a car compared t…

Preferring an electric Porsche or Mercedes over an electric Tesla is one thing, but to say the "electric car novelty will wear off" is complete nonsense. EVs are the future, and they're only going to continue to replace gas-powered cars.

You're missing the point. If indeed your second point is true:

> EVs are the future, and they're only going to continue to replace gas-powered cars.

Then the fact that the "electric car novelty will wear off" is a given. By definition, electric cars can't both be the norm and a novelty at the same time.

Re: Tesla to raise $1B

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 23% YTD return While the 600% is impressive, the year to date performance matches the overall market. Gotta hit those Model 3 dates to maintain the confidence.

What overall market? MSCI ACWI Autos and Components was at 3.44% YTD at the end of Feburary while MSCI ACWI was at 5.37%. The S&P 500 is at about 7% YTD return. Tesla's YTD return more than matches the overall market https://www.msci.com/documents/10199/f87aad4f-6f38-4878-a149...

>Tesla's YTD return more than matches the overall market

What is so significant about YTD?

You can arrange the data in any number of ways to tell a story: A Tesla investment since 2014 has lost money (and been diluted). Go back to 2013 and suddenly it's a goldmine.

Tesla having been a "good purchase" depends on what you paid. But I have a feeling that more people are sitting on a cost basis >$250 than <$100, in which case a TSLA investment has been mediocre.

Re: Tesla to raise $1B

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I doubt they are any worse than any other company introducing a new model." Except they are. The Model S is 5 years old (even the refresh model is a year old) and they are still running into parts and build issues. It has improved a long way but during the whole process they had to cut the number of interior and exterior colors/trims just to streamline the production. Other manufacturers introduces new fit/finish an…

I don't dispute your facts at all, but I think you've strongly missed the key point of how disruption works. Not having as many trim and color options because they can't shove them out the door fast enough is a textbook example of "good enough". It is this very industry's not too distant history from which the quip "they can have it in any color they like, so long as its black" comes from. What I mean is, you appear…

Except in most cases disruption doesn't work. The canonical examples from "The Innovator's Dilemma" all fall apart under scrutiny (as in the "disrupted" companies end up eating their disrupters for breakfast). GM is now doing a better job of executing in Tesla's space than Tesla, and that situation is not going to get better for Tesla.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/06/23/the-disruption-...

Re: Tesla to raise $1B

#315
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm that is true. It's probably been said before, but the Model X definitely made things a lot more difficult to get to a rollout of the model 3. "I'm not sure anyone should have made this car," he said at a press conference just hours before the first Model Xs were delivered to VIP customers." ""We probably should have just [modified the Model S]," he added. "There are so many more features and difficult to build pa…

> "We probably should have just [modified the Model S]" This is one thing I really don't get about Tesla. Why haven't they made an estate-ish version of the Model S? I'm thinking along the lines of the Mercedes CLS Shooting Brake: http://images.car.bauercdn.com/upload/28771/images/1752x1168... It's a very nice looking car, and adds that little bit of luggage practicality that the Model S is missing. The aerodynamics…

I don't think it's uglier than the sedan but I wouldn't call it beautiful. VW makes really nice wagon versions of its golf (or Jetta depending on the year) and I don't see why Tesla couldn't have done something similar.

Re: Tesla to raise $1B

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great many people said reusable rockets were not going to happen and that the pursuit of the technology would end in failure. The same has been said (and continues to be said in this thread ) of the ambition to revolutionize the automotive market with a compelling affordable electric car. Cheap pr stunt? What? How the hell is it even possible to blow SpaceX's accomplishments out of proportion? What they've done is…

>A great many people said reusable rockets were not going to happen and that the pursuit of the technology would end in failure. A great many people said? Where? And more importantly, why? For what reasons did they say it was not possible? Was it impossible by laws of physics? What "breakthrough" in physics did spacex make that made this suddenly possible? How come we never hear of any such breakthroughs, but only ab…

I had a colleague of mine (who works on rockets/spaceflight, has done so for decades) say the barge landing was impossible.

As far as your other demanding questions, no breakthroughs in physics have been necessary to make reusable launch possible. People have constantly made predictions that somehow physics precludes reuse, let alone fast turnaround reuse, from being possible. But that has never, ever been the case. Still people (who ought to know better) will continue making such ridiculous statements. And yes, SpaceX has disproven a lot of these myths.

Privately developed orbital rocket (i.e. not based on government missile parts, etc): Falcon 1, done. Privately developed capsule return from orbit: Dragon, done. Vertical landing recovery of a first stage for an orbital rocket: Falcon 9, done.

First landing on an autonomous ship: Falcon 9, again, done.

In less than a month, they'll also do their first orbital flight on a reused first stage.

Lesser-known accomplishments by SpaceX: Merlin 1D has a thrust to weight ratio of about 180-200 in its latest incarnation. That's dramatically better than the next-best, the NK-33 (at 137). And it's a big reason they've been successful at recovering so many stages without a prohibitive performance penalty. And it accomplished this by using deep propellant subcooling, which had never been done before except in some subscale tests.

Supersonic retropropulsion of the first stage is also something that had never been done before. It's a key enabling technology for Mars landings, and NASA was scared to baseline it for any of their Mars architectures and couldn't afford the tens of millions for a dedicated test. SpaceX gave them the data for free (in exchange for some in-kind services like data collection, but no money). Now every NASA human-scale Mars lander concept assumes the use of supersonic retropropulsion. This is a big change.

Crew around the Moon is not a PR stunt but a revenue source for SpaceX. Red Dragon is not a PR stunt but a key in SpaceX's (and the world's) ability to land large payloads on Mars and test the ISRU technology needed for sustainable crewed Mars missions.

Raptor, which has already had some test fires, is a truly scifi engine. It'll be the highest performance engine (in terms of chamber pressure, which is a key metric for thrust to weight ratio, and especially Isp for a given propellant combination, and also for thrust from a given engine size and thus for manufacturing efficiency) ever. A full-flow staged combustion engine, two-stage turbopump. It's insanely high performance and will get similarly high thrust-to-weight ratio as Merlin in spite of using a less dense propellant.

The ITS will dwarf all other launch vehicles in terms of raw size, raw thrust, raw payload, and especially its fully reusable upper stage/spacecraft combo.

And it's not even that SpaceX are the first ones to imagine these technologies (although some details are novel), it's that they're actually doing them. And that's a big difference. There are virtually no good ideas in aerospace that were not at least imagined by the end of the 1960s, but the vast, vast majority have languished. There have been several other abortive attempts to develop a low-cost private launch company, and (beside Orbital, which has a very different company mindset now) SpaceX is essentially the first successful one.

There will be others, but they were catalyzed by SpaceX. SpaceX's high churn rate has fertilized the whole American rocket industry. And this is very good. Even if SpaceX fails now, Blue Origin will succeed where SpaceX has prepared the ground. (Blue Origin essentially /cannot/ fail, since it's bankrolled by Jeff Bezos, who has more money than God.)

Re: Tesla to raise $1B

#317
post #286
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What liability? You're supposed to constantly be aware and in control of your vehicle when using AP2. (At which point, you may ask: What is the point of AP2..?)

It would be funny if in the future they say something like "So your new Tesla has Level 5 autonomy, but because the car still has a driving wheel, even if you turn on the Level 5 Autopilot, you're liable if an accident happens."

Of course that will be the case. Tesla will never be willing to accept liability for accidents.

Re: Tesla to raise $1B

#318
post #209

It's correct that if EVs take off, there is going to be a lot of new demand for batteries. It is also correct that as a car manufacturer, owning a battery producing company and selling to the rest of the industry, is a competitive advantage. It is not correct that building both of these companies from scratch, in parallel, is the way to do it. Focus on building cars an become the leader in that, then buy Panasonic or…

"It is also correct that as a car manufacturer, owning a battery producing company and selling to the rest of the industry, is a competitive advantage." You really don't get rich off of building commoditized foundational parts like battery. Any competitive edge you have is going to be short lived.

You say that, but in recent decades, Intel was more profitable than the typical PC manufacturer that bought chips from them. Hard technology can be a very lucrative competitive advantage.

Re: Tesla to raise $1B

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A great many people said reusable rockets were not going to happen and that the pursuit of the technology would end in failure. A great many people said? Where? And more importantly, why? For what reasons did they say it was not possible? Was it impossible by laws of physics? What "breakthrough" in physics did spacex make that made this suddenly possible? How come we never hear of any such breakthroughs, but only ab…

I had a colleague of mine (who works on rockets/spaceflight, has done so for decades) say the barge landing was impossible. As far as your other demanding questions, no breakthroughs in physics have been necessary to make reusable launch possible. People have constantly made predictions that somehow physics precludes reuse, let alone fast turnaround reuse, from being possible. But that has never, ever been the case.…

>I had a colleague of mine (who works on rockets/spaceflight, has done so for decades) say the barge landing was impossible.

Surely they might have mentioned a couple of reasons. Care to share?

Re: Tesla to raise $1B

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read this book [1] back in the '90's. An amazing read about the world of auto manufacturing. Regarding Tesla, surely I am not the only one waiting for competition. I think the problem Tesla has is that when the giants awake they will outclass them at nearly every level. It's like thinking you are doing great in your open water swim until the triathletes leave you in their wake. Surely companies who have been honing…

>They are all waiting for the same thing: Cheaper, lighter, better energy storage. >Tesla has a problem: It has to achieve scale before that moment in time. Do they though? With the gigafactory, they could very well be the company providing the batteries that the big manufacturers are waiting for.

This is total conjecture, of course, so take it for what it is.

I need to go back a ways on this one. I have been flying model aircraft for decades.

If you go back far enough it was impossible to even consider flying an electric powered airplane because alkaline batteries simply didn't have the energy density.

Sometime later came NiCd batteries and they eventually hit that sweet spot where you could stick a few of them in a plane, put a motor in the nose and fly for a few minutes. I had gliders with 27 NiCd cell packs what weighed in at somewhere around six or eight pounds all by themselves.

A few years went by (6 to 10, don't remember) and LiPo batteries surfaced. Now I could actually fly jets. And the glider with the super heavy 27 cell NiCd pack got a very light and small six cell LiPo pack, a far more efficient brushless motor and performance was out of this world.

Today electric powered model aircraft are probably the majority of the product sold and they include high powered helicopters and even the "impossible" quadcopters.

These transitions were mainly the result of energy storage technology, nothing else mattered until you could carry enough energy at a favorable weight ratio and in a favorable volume.

The companies that brought us these transitions, very much in the spirit of "The Innovator's Dilemma" [1], were not the same companies that provided the older energy storage technologies.

This is where I come full circle to Tesla and the Gigafactory.

Tesla has done a great job with this and it has positioned itself to benefit from scale in manufacturing battery packs with the existing best-in-class energy storage technology. They will, in this regard, do well.

Yet, this will become a significant liability if and when the next step change in energy storage technology comes about. Scale has it's benefits, but it can also kill you.

Again, this is conjecture. Imagine a day within the next 3 to 5 years when someone demonstrates a technology with three times the capacity, in half the volume, with half the weight and none of the longevity problems. We recently saw just such an announcement, although it seems the technology suffers from a power-to-weight issue at the moment.

Imagine someone else finally develops a supercapacitor system that makes current Lithium-based cells look as bad as they made NiCd cells look years ago.

Whoever does that will trigger the inflection point and a massive migration away from internal combustion engines to electric powerplants. Just like it did with model airplanes.

In the model airplane world, the pioneers of electric flight were absolutely skewered by the established (and some new) players in model airplane manufacturing. Most people today don't even know the names of the pioneers.

Tesla could suffer this fate. The Gigafactory could actually become a huge liability. Imagine having such an operation at a time when nobody has any interest in the technology you can produce.

I truly believe other manufacturers are waiting in the wings for this inflection point while they experiment and get ready. I have a gut feeling we are not too far from that moment in time when a significant enough technology shift occurs to make electric transportation viable for the masses.

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