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Uber Driver Tip-Hustling Schemes

angelinatravels.boardingarea.com

251–260 of 670 posts

Re: Uber Driver Tip-Hustling Schemes

#251
post #89

I'd love if an economist of somebody with a better financial background could comment on this: When you're giving a tip, you're effectively giving money to the people who own the company (or participate in profit sharing). Tips allow employers to pay their employees under market rate. By paying enough tip to bring the employee's wage up to the market rate, you are subsidizing the company's profit, not the employees p…

Thinking through this, kind of out loud.

Let's just take restaurants as an example. You say "tips allow employers to pay under market rate," but that can't be the case as a matter of logic. The market rate is _defined_ by what employers pay employees-employers as a whole simply can't all be paying below market wages or else the market rate would just be lower.

Perhaps you mean, "less than the market rate for similarly skilled labor in non-tipped sectors" (shoe sales, as an off+handed example). The question then becomes, "are the workers' skills in these sectors transferrable? Could workers simply change jobs if offered higher wages elsewhere?"

If so, then it follows that we can assume that the negatives you mentioned, like lower wages and less predictability, would drive workers out of the tipped sector and into the non-tipped sector. This would drive wages back up in the tipped sector. We don't see that.

What I think we see, and I admit this is a little anecdotal, is that restaurants (in healthy markets) are quite easily able to fill their positions. In fact, there's competition _for_ the positions amongst workers.

The fundamental rule to keep in mind is that if workers are being underpayed, they would simply change their​ line of work, driving wages up as the of supply of labor thinned. But what we see is that on the low-ends of both markets, wages generally stick to the minimum wage.

If tips were suddenly​ outlawed, do you think that restaurant wages would skyrocket to $30/hr? That's roughly the equivalent of 4 $40 tables with an 18% tip. I don't think so, because workers from other sectors would flood in from other sectors causing the wage to be pushed back down. A new equilibrium would probably be found somewhere just above the going rate in non-tipped sectors. If anything, tipping probably lowers wages for non-tipped employees more than the tipped ones.

I think the more interesting experiment would be to see how take home pay would be affected in a "tip-only" restaurant. In most, places around the country, the minimum wage for tipped positions is ~$6/hr. Losing that would be like losing one ~$33 table. On the employer's side, they would gain ~$9 back when you account for payroll taxes. I think what we'd see is that most of that wouldn't just be pocketed by the employer, it would probably go back into the restaurant in the form of better ingredients, materials, marketing, and/or additional staff, all in hopes of increasing the number of tables turned overall. Non-luxury restaurant profits are driven by tables turned, not the price of each plate. E.G. hiring an extra busboy or dishwasher might help you turn over more tables more quickly, increasing restaurant profits and also the number of tips earned by the servers.

I don't know, this is all an interesting thought experiment.

In general, I'm pretty wary of "employers pay workers less by taking advantage of X" arguments. Unless it's poor government policy distorting the labor market or something like a recession, labor markets probably function like any other market. Supply and demand still reigns king. Underpaying employers will have a hard time keeping employees. Highly skilled workers in any sector will sell their talent to the highest bidder.

Re: Uber Driver Tip-Hustling Schemes

#252
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I treat tips the same way that sales managers treat commissions. (I wouldn't be surprised if that's the model it came from, actually.) If you pretend to care about me and my company while we eat at your restaurant (or whatever) and do all that you can to make the experience a good one for us, then we will tip you well and we will more than likely come back. 20% is usually my minimum, but I've tipped 50-100% sometimes…

So even when someone treats you like shit (your words) you still give them more than you owe? Why?

I'm not the person you were responding to, but my reasoning is that I still get paid even on days when I phone it in and do poorly at my job. Why should I in turn get to deny pay to others, as long as they did the bare minimum?

I think the bar for someone to not get paid for working should be really fucking high.

Re: Uber Driver Tip-Hustling Schemes

#253
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stopped using Uber and switched to lyft exactly because Uber doesn't allow in app tipping. The problem is you aren't paying more for each fare to avoid tipping Uber is just using it's duoploy pricing power to put the squeeze on drivers.

I try to upvote rather than +1, but chiming in to point out how wrong the parent comment is assuming they shouldn't tip. Of course, scrolling down the thread just shows that waaay too many HNers live in their own bubble pretending to be Mr. Pink with their mightier-than-thousplaining that justifies their miserliness. No matter how disruptive moving livery to cashless may have been, the truth remains: Uber's current b…

Your fare for Pool/Line have low correlation to the driver's revenue. Especially if you shared the ride with another fare.

The driver gets paid for distance from the first pickup to the last dropoff. If an extra fare hops in and out along the way, that's almost zero extra revenue for the driver. Thus, if you're taking a popular route, the app can charge you very little and still turn a profit.

Re: Uber Driver Tip-Hustling Schemes

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you located? 15% for average service is definitely customary at sit-down restaurants in the United States.

Do you know anyone who actually works in food service? I do, and they'd be pissed if everyone skimped with a 15% tip. It's 20% for adequate service, 25% for excellent.

Well that's news to me. I generally tip 20% and thought I was being generous...

Re: Uber Driver Tip-Hustling Schemes

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tipping culture is actually one factor which makes it unattractive for me to travel in the US. Too much mental costs.

It really isn't that hard, pretty much you always just tip a standard amount (average tip is 15-20%).

With tax miracullously not included in price, calculating tip and final total is a fun guessing game that you have to play each time you make an order.

Re: Uber Driver Tip-Hustling Schemes

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tipping culture is actually one factor which makes it unattractive for me to travel in the US. Too much mental costs.

It really isn't that hard, pretty much you always just tip a standard amount (average tip is 15-20%).

Sure, but if you're not used to tipping, it can be confusing to figure out what services you should and should not tip for.

Re: Uber Driver Tip-Hustling Schemes

#257
post #23

Born and raised in northern Europe I find the US tipping culture weird. To me, tips are a bonus for service that goes above and beyond the expected.

Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast when wages are so low. Bartenders are typically paid next to nothing and depend on tips, whereas in Europe they are paid a decent amount and don't need tips to get by. Unfortunately US politics means this won't change any time soon. Evidently it's simpler for every American to carry around spare dollar bills every day than it is to pass meaningful legislation.

There is a whole other inequity that arises out out of the ridiculous US tipping regime, I will quote restauranteur Danny Meter again:

"What is a tip? It’s a multiplier of menu pricing and as menu prices have gone up, so too has the multiplier over the course of my career which is now 30, 31 years.Tipped employees, happily for them, are making about 300 percent of what they were 31 years ago. During that same period, everyone in the kitchen — the dishwasher, non-tip eligible employees — have seen their hourly income go up about 20 percent."[1]

http://www.eater.com/2017/1/12/14250128/danny-meyer-tipping-...

Re: Uber Driver Tip-Hustling Schemes

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. That's the main advantage of the service--that you don't have to horse around with cash and tipping or fumbling around with a credit card in the back seat while the driver waits. If they ever added the expectation of tipping, I would drop them like a bad habit. The fares are super reasonable and I would be more than happy to pay even a little more if it meant not getting guilt tripped over a tip. Tipping i…

> I would be more than happy to pay even a little more if it meant not getting guilt tripped over a tip That does not sound very logical.

It's completely logical. If you value a silent car ride, or more significantly, if you value not being asked for money by someone who has you trapped in the back seat of their car and whom you are trusting to get you to your destination, then you would pay more up front for a ride free of hustle for a tip.

Re: Uber Driver Tip-Hustling Schemes

#259
post #4

No Tipping is one of the main reasons I liked Uber; no cash, no pressure, you just get out of the car and walk away with everyone happy. I would rather pay more for each fare and have Uber aggressively prohibit tipping. I suspect many people feel the same way and if Uber doesn't get it under control, it could be the biggest challenge they face.

After I switched to Lyft in the wake of the Susan Fowler thing, I discovered that they give you the option to tip. It made me realize that the pain point of tipping is actually feeling pressured to tip the moment the service ends . With the Lyft app I can tip (or not) later on, and I almost always do. It's not tipping that I don't like; in fact I really like tipping. With their strict no-tipping policy, it turns out…

With optional after-the-fact tipping, I'd still be concerned whether or not the fact you tipped is tracked. When you tip, is the driver individually informed? The next time you get the same driver, are they in a position to remember that you were a bad tipper on the last trip? Even if the driver isn't made aware of your individual tipping history, surely the company as a whole is tracking this information and building a (negative) profile for you. Do they charge you more on subsequent rides to compensate for your perceived poor history?

This is the problem with tipping - there is ALWAYS room for abuse. I don't understand why you'd be at ease for not being "put on the spot" to tip, when the driver or company still knows afterwards. The facts haven't changed; they still know whether you tip, and any "consequences" for not tipping will still be in play. You're playing a mind game with yourself if you think that adding a few hours of buffer between service and tip is any different than tipping on the spot.

This is why, all employees - regardless of the company and its industry - should not be tipped. Pay your staff a proper wage, and fire people who do not provide good service. The very concept of tipping is ridiculous. It serves no other reason than to satisfy employers' lowballing of wage, while inducing anxiety to their customers.

Re: Uber Driver Tip-Hustling Schemes

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still tip the normal amount when I get takeout from a restaurant that has tables.

Is this normal? I never tip for takeout..

A friend is a cook who says that even at decent restaurants, cooks don't get paid much and they get just a minimal share of tips. So when I get takeout, I tip 10-20% and say "Thank-you, here's something for the kitchen." Sometimes I get thanks in return, sometimes just a sour look from a server who expected something more for putting my order in a bag. I have no idea what they'll do with the cash, but hopefully some of it gets to the back of the house.
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