Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions” • Hacker News Board

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#201

Post by kerbalspacepro » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 4:17 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #42

ghostly_s wrote: post #33

Oh, how I laughed, to finish this ode to humility and there at the bottom, this little blurb which seems to be working overtime in demonstrating as many of the just-disparaged traits as possible. >Want more? Join over 15,000 readers getting The Open Circle, a weekly dose of my best ideas. I’ll also send you 200+ pages from my private notebooks and 24 of my favorite books. Get it here.

Yes, but please don't post snarky dismissals anyhow. How often do we get to discuss Chekhov?

I've never heard of him and probably won't hear of him again, so I guess somewhere less than once a decade.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#202

Post by kordless » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 4:58 PM UTC

notduncansmith wrote: post #35

kordless wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It allows one to achieve a view where they don't judge others in an attempt to speak for them as you have done here. While you can imagine someone patting themselves on the back for being aesthetic, the reality is that is only occurring vividly in your own mind, and not out here. If someone was indeed patting themselves on the back out here for these things, that is a separate problem created of their own judgement.…

Most behavior is viral by default, human see human do. While I agree that this extends to judgemental and otherwise unproductive discourse, usually the factors driving those behaviors in people are unlikely to be resolved by having the symptoms pointed out repeatedly. If a software module is producing faulty output, you have to fix the problem on the inside rather than simply rejecting all of the output. People are t…

If the behaviors are affecting the message passing, then measures must be put in place to limit that behavior. Buddhism calls the pointing out of this type of behavior "indirect pointing", but given we have a construct (the computer) we can now point to, I'd prefer to just point and say "This irrational statement is itself a producer of irrationality and therefore should be limited given its affect on the message passing".

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#203

Post by idiot_stick » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

sudosteph wrote: post #135

idiot_stick wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TFW you're voted down immediately for calling out sexism which, though very explicit, has so far gone uncommented upon What reaction were you hoping for? That we'd refuse to read the thoughts of someone who lived 150 years ago because you deem one line sexist? It's more shocking to me that someone could read a letter like this and get only "author is sexist" as the message. By the way, "freshness, elegance, humanit…

It may not have been the most elegant invitation to discourse, but CaptainSwing is right that Chekhov was conveying a very sexist attitude there. The problem isn't so much that his favorite traits in a partner coincide with stereotypes of an idealized woman, it's that he goes out of his way to say that clever women aren't worthy partners because they're liars. The rest of his letter shows that he clearly values intel…

>Was he emotionally hurt by clever women lying to him? Or did he just cut-and-dry accept patriarchic notions of women as lesser beings who can't achieve the same standards of intelligence and morality?

Or maybe it's neither. Maybe he didn't think twice about it, like most of us reading it, because it's beside the point.

>That double-standard is a flaw in his thinking and his character

Thankfully, HN has some glass-house residents eager to point out such character flaws, despite the content.

I'll reiterate: if you read something like the article, and your first thought is "this author might be sexist!" (emphasis on might), then you are not without your own debilitating flaws.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#204

Post by kordless » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 5:14 PM UTC

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #23

kordless wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It allows one to achieve a view where they don't judge others in an attempt to speak for them as you have done here. While you can imagine someone patting themselves on the back for being aesthetic, the reality is that is only occurring vividly in your own mind, and not out here. If someone was indeed patting themselves on the back out here for these things, that is a separate problem created of their own judgement.…

Your comment is barely comprehensible to me. Can you condense this to simple English? What are you even saying in half of your post? > It allows one to achieve a view where they don't judge others So you're telling me that being cultured allows one to not judge others, but while clearly having the effect of outwardly being smug to others? That's basically what I got out of your comment and the parent post. Your aside…

One side-effect of stating one's internal truth is that others may take it how they like. If you decide to take what I'm saying as smug and rude, then that's your prerogative to speak for me in an internal frame, inside your mind. Out here in the external frame, what appears to be a deterministic reality by all accounts, I'm telling you directly that I am not smug about this and I do not consider my actions rude given I'm not blaming you, personally, in my original comment. (The state of rudeness can only be evaluated by the entity which receives the comment, not someone who speaks for them out of turn.) In fact, it is my intent to help others achieve a state of understanding that allows their own assertion of my claims here. If Boothroid has something to say about me or my comments here, then that is their prerogative. I would encourage them to keep speaking for my internal frame to a minimum, however, and make observations instead of judgement. Only each of us may speak for our own internal frames.

I will note that there is blame in my comments here now, which is being directed toward someone who is clearly speaking for another's thought processes - that would be you speaking for me being smug and Boothrid in my "being rude" to them, when I'm saying otherwise here publicly. This behavior can contribute to a cyclic behavior of increasing blame (from the irrationality spreading) if one decides to ignore what another is saying and continue speaking for their internal frame.

Tending toward the aesthetic encourages letting go of personal judgement because once you stop judging yourself, you stop judging others. There's also a deeper cause for letting go of judgement, which involves understanding what all of this really is. You may think you are are separate entity and definitely have a right to claim separation from the whole, if that's what you want. OTOH, I think you are one part of a larger unidentified, unified entity: a global consciousness frequently mistaken for "God" by religions.

However, me stating that internal thought to you here is direct blame if you don't believe that, given I (would and am) pointing out publicly that you are part of a global entity (which itself is an irrational thought). Again, spreading irrationality by broadcasting irrational logic is not ideal, so I really shouldn't do it. However, I did it here to prove a point. ;)

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#205

Post by sudosteph » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

xherberta wrote: post #173

sudosteph wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not have been the most elegant invitation to discourse, but CaptainSwing is right that Chekhov was conveying a very sexist attitude there. The problem isn't so much that his favorite traits in a partner coincide with stereotypes of an idealized woman, it's that he goes out of his way to say that clever women aren't worthy partners because they're liars. The rest of his letter shows that he clearly values intel…

I read it a little differently. He cites "THE cleverness which...", implying that there's a particular form of cleverness that manifests in "continual lying." I wonder whether the Russian word translated "cleverness" means straight intelligence as you are reading, or whether it might connote a sense of guile. I'm also a little perplexed that people are taking the "motherhood" part as sexist. What's wrong with aspirin…

The sense of "guile" that we associate with cleverness is actually a pretty new subtlety. In older english it was basically equivalent to intelligent / skillful. (see http://www.websters1913.com/words/Clever ). I'm not sure when this was translated, or whether the russian meaning is different, but as it reads, intelligence is the most accurate meaning in that context. Unless the russian meaning is radically different, he's clearly stating intelligent women = liars, even if it's not comfortable to recognize that.

Agreed that motherhood is not the sexist part. If you as a man value children and fatherhood, then someone who values motherhood is the logical choice. There's nothing wrong with motherhood, and I think the vast majority of people do rightly view it as noble and respectable, as long as it's a choice at least.

I don't care at all about "freshness, elegance, humanity", and those traits do seem valued plenty as is. I've never seen someone get less respect in tech for exhibiting those values.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#206

Post by sudosteph » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 5:29 PM UTC

idiot_stick wrote: post #203

sudosteph wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not have been the most elegant invitation to discourse, but CaptainSwing is right that Chekhov was conveying a very sexist attitude there. The problem isn't so much that his favorite traits in a partner coincide with stereotypes of an idealized woman, it's that he goes out of his way to say that clever women aren't worthy partners because they're liars. The rest of his letter shows that he clearly values intel…

> Was he emotionally hurt by clever women lying to him? Or did he just cut-and-dry accept patriarchic notions of women as lesser beings who can't achieve the same standards of intelligence and morality? Or maybe it's neither. Maybe he didn't think twice about it, like most of us reading it, because it's beside the point. > That double-standard is a flaw in his thinking and his character Thankfully, HN has some glass-…

When did I say I was without flaws?

I'm just contributing to one aspect of discussion for the piece linked because it interests me. As is kind of the point of the comment section, yes? You are welcome to disagree with my points, but my interpretation of the work is no less valid as yours. Judging by the votes on my comments I'm not an outlier either.

At least I'm supporting my comments with context from the piece. You're just quoting me and saying (paraphrased of course) "you don't get the point", "I know what your first thought about this was", "you have debilitating flaws". I got the point, that wasn't my first thought (just the first thing I wanted to write about), and yeah, I've got flaws like everyone else here.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#207

Post by frandroid » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 5:51 PM UTC

defen wrote: post #147

frandroid wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pevear_and_Larissa_Vol... have made translations of Dostoyevsky which are eminently more readable than the rest. I've started reading their translation of The Master and Margarita and I'm enjoying it a lot.

> I've started reading their translation of The Master and Margarita and I'm enjoying it a lot. I'll have to check that out - I enjoyed their War & Peace. I found Ginsburg's translation of The Master and Margarita to be unreadably bad. There was just no joy in it whatsoever, to the point where I was wondering why it was such a famous book. It's been a while, but I recall the adjective use being terribly wooden. So ma…

It has a ton of footnotes explaining the background and in-jokes on the specific names and characters invoked. They really enrich the novel in ways that a non-religiously educated person like me would miss. The preface is really excellent too.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#208

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 6:46 PM UTC

kerbalspacepro wrote: post #201

dang wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but please don't post snarky dismissals anyhow. How often do we get to discuss Chekhov?

I've never heard of him and probably won't hear of him again, so I guess somewhere less than once a decade.

[deleted]

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#209

Post by PerfectDlite » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 9:50 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #186

ptaipale wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. I'm sure reading was encouraged in USSR. Just not reading the wrong books. But overall, people got good education to culture there. It was one of the ideals of the soviet state that actually worked. Only in the later stages of decline, when economy was tanking and people spent half their time queuing for things, they probably had less time to read...

> Only in the later stages of decline, when economy was tanking and people spent half their time queuing for things, they probably had less time to read... That's what I meant: in the turmoil of 1991 and beyond, people would have less time to read...

After 1991 they have a lot of other entertainments to spend a time on - pirated videos, more than 3 state-approved TV channels, spread of BBS, FIDO and Internet...

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#210

Post by mleonhard » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 10:09 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #59

I notice this theme again and again in every "change yourself" book, show, class, lecture. Be it weight loss, improving mental health, curing addiction, becoming a better writer/photographer/programmer, the theme all comes down to a battle against yourself. Fighting the desire to snack, fighting the desire to lay on the couch instead of going to the gym, fighting the desire to veg and watch netflix instead of watchin…

Vipassana meditation has helped me to increase discipline and self-control. Since taking a 10-day course, I finally got control of my snacking urges and my emotional health has drastically improved.

http://dhamma.org/