How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree • Hacker News Board

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#61

Post by gravypod » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 1:18 AM UTC

I don't think most of us want to be "Computer Scientists" as the colleges define it.

I think most of us want some kind of Software Engineering degree which is not what a Computer Science degree is. Most colleges want to teach "Computer Science" as they see it which is basically just "Math with Data Structures and other BS thrown in to make people hirable".

I think at this point what needs to happen is colleges need to stop branding "Computer Science" as something that will get you a job and stick to what they want to do, the hard algorithms and theory stuff and someone else needs to offer a "Software Engineering" course that teaches all the stuff that colleges threw in to make people hireable. If that happened we'd all be more happy.

The only way to make this happen is to stop posting job profiles asking for "Computer Science" unless you acctually need a Computer Scientist (theory-side). You should instead say "Software Engineer or similar" in the posting. Colleges will see this, parents will see this, students will see this and after that all happens we'll all be able to make better choices. Students will find colleges wanting to teach what they are interested, the stuanch theory CS professors will be able to teach at colleges, and employers will actually find programmers who can program after they've graduated from college. Maybe we'd be able to kill off a few major zero days, save a chunk of change in the global economy, or make something cool by making this small change.

I also don't think Software Engineering is as much of a "science" as it is a "trade". Programmers program, painters paint, carpenters carpet.... I mean build. We all have a skilled knowladge and tallent and know how to use that to shape the world around us. Most of the information that must be taught is experiance based and can be given in a trade-school enviroment. I think that's also another way forward.

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#62

Post by komali2 » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 1:26 AM UTC

popdoit wrote: post #59

komali2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, you may, it does seem pretty crazy, doesn't it? I would say that the reason it seems crazy isn't rational , however. If I was forced to break down the reasons that this worked, I would condense it to three: 1. I focused entirely upon a single skill that is highly desired right now (Javascript / Web Development in JS/HTML/CSS/JS Frameworks). I didn't "waste" any time learning other programming languages, systems…

Maybe I'm a lazy asshole, but I how can anyone cram-learn like that? 8am-9p everyday? Come on?! I applaud your effort. I really do. As long as your employer, and you, have the proper expectations about your skill set then I guess it's the perfect match.

I certainly wouldn't recommend it for all sorts of learning. It worked for me because I had literally gambled everything on it - if I dropped out or got kicked out, I'd be 17k in debt living in the most expensive city in america with almost no savings. Failure wasn't an option. Furthermore, my fallback options were shitty. 40k/year doing sales or recruitment, busting my ass to reach 6 figures, being stepped on the whole way up the ladder. Maybe teaching english abroad, end up being that 40 year old white dude trapped in Taiwan, stuck every night in the foreigner bar and droning about what could have been. Nope no no thank you.

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#63

Post by lloydde » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 1:47 AM UTC

I enjoyed the article and the determined attitude of the author, but he failed to answer some important questions. What makes this employer worth all the work? And the job? How long is the long time he expects to work there? And what leads him to anticipate that about himself and his employer? Neither are likely to be the same in a few years.

I stayed with IBM for 4 years out of university. In hindsight, I wish I left after two years as it was in those first years I learned the most about how the large operate. The next two years was me getting too comfortable. I could have kept my energy and learning higher by seeking new professional experiences that are not available within an org.

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#64

Post by lacampbell » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 1:59 AM UTC

rezashirazian wrote: post #56

steven777400 wrote: post #2

The author's comment on access to a mediocre/unknown university instructor for a high fee vs free access to a very good set of lectures (Khan) is one of the doubts that led me to quit my job as a college instructor. I had kind of the existential "what are we doing here?" question -- why are students coming here and paying us money when better instruction is available for free online? Combined with a couple of educati…

A college degree, in my opinion, has little to do with the degree or the technical material you learn. the value of attending college and completing a four-year degree at an accredited university comes from the environment you're ingrained in for that time. The people you meet, the conversations you have and experiences you expose yourself supersedes the raw material in the curriculum. Don't get me wrong, the stuff i…

the value of attending college and completing a four-year degree at an accredited university comes from the environment you're ingrained in for that time. The people you meet, the conversations you have and experiences you expose yourself supersedes the raw material in the curriculum.

Don't get me wrong, the stuff in the textbox are important but I think you get your real value from the experiences and the relationships you make with your peers and instructors.

This is an extremely romanticised view of university, IMO. Maybe you went to a particularly good one.

I studied computer science. My experience was nothing like that at all. The vast majority of the people I met had no real interest or passion about the subject. They took no interest in anything outside of the course work, and certainly weren't up for any interesting discussions about our field. The motivations seemed to be purely financial - jump through these hoops and get a job.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I just hope people considering attending university consider that their experience may match mine. You may walk into a lecture full of shy people, who have divided themselves along ethnic lines, who are not interested in the subject, or stimulating discussion, or being friends, or anything outside their grades. The lecturer will pick up on it and be appropriately unmotivated.

YMMV, but for me it was literally just getting a piece of paper that stopped recruiters and HR deleting my CV. I learned far more chatting in IRC than I did in my courses. I'm 3 years out from university and no longer speak to anyone I met there.

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#65

Post by ryandrake » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 2:07 AM UTC

acchow wrote: post #48

ryandrake wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious, how close are you and pacaro to 40? Congratulations on your success but you guys might find the smooth sailing become much less smooth the older you get.

I was in my mid 20's when I quit my job to learn programming. Do you mean if I tried to enter the industry in my 40's it would have been much harder? Or now that I'm in the industry, the smooth sailing will eventually get rougher as I approach my 40s? If the latter, I don't really believe it...

Yea, I meant the latter. Software is the ultimate "early plateau" career.

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#66

Post by pacaro » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 2:20 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #46

acchow wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My early steps were pretty similar as well, tho I kind of "hacked" my way into the industry by getting an internship 1) Tinker with computers as a kid 2) Go to University to study something I wanted to learn (Biochemistry) - took CS101 to learn some programming 3) Go to grad school for something else unrelated (economics) 4) Work in something unrelated 5) Learn programming in spare time. 6) Quit job. Learn programmin…

Just curious, how close are you and pacaro to 40? Congratulations on your success but you guys might find the smooth sailing become much less smooth the older you get.

I'm in my mid 40s, currently a Principal Engineer at Amazon. My experience is probably not typical for all sorts of reasons

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#67

Post by spraak » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 2:36 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #6

Damn, that guy busted his butt. I got a creative writing degree from a decent but relatively unheard of Texas state school, spent a month studying Javascript, got into a bootcamp, worked for the bootcamp as TA for 3 months, then got a ~120k/yr job in the bay area within a month of leaving the bootcamp. I had 3 projects on my resume and absolutely nothing technical to show for the time period prior to the bootcamp, ot…

I'd say a lot of luck, too? I did the same but my salary is only half that.

Edit: I do get to work remotely though, and the salary is in UK terms

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#68

Post by dorfsmay » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 2:48 AM UTC

hackerboos wrote: post #8

YZF wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between having an instructor and learning things from a book or video lectures. An instructor can correct your mistakes and give you feedback. A book or a video can't do that. Some people presumably don't have a right kind of discipline to study on their own. This is why remote study programs can be a lot more difficult to complete vs. on-site programs. EDIT: There's a known effect, discussed…

The Open University in the UK has a dropout rate of 87% [1] I'd imagine that's even higher for online courses. I can only speak for myself but I would not have been self-disciplined enough to complete the courses that I did during my undergraduate CS degree. The added bonus was the degree allowed me to emigrate fairly easily. [1] - https://www.timeshighereducation.com/letters/the-open-univer...

As an OU graduate (late 90s), my first thought was that a lot of people just try the OU, others just like to take some classes without sticking to a program and with no intention of getting a degree...

> the cost for an equivalent course for a resident of England is £2,786

The OU used to be about giving a chance to education to everybody. This is sad...

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#69

Post by dorfsmay » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 2:56 AM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #4

steven777400 wrote: post #2

The author's comment on access to a mediocre/unknown university instructor for a high fee vs free access to a very good set of lectures (Khan) is one of the doubts that led me to quit my job as a college instructor. I had kind of the existential "what are we doing here?" question -- why are students coming here and paying us money when better instruction is available for free online? Combined with a couple of educati…

People are still paying because the sheep-skin still opens doors that Kahn doesn't. Until that reality (or perception) changes its still the way to go. Note that the author had a degree (and a fairly prestigious one at that), it just happened not to be a CS degree.

Don't confuse accreditation with education.

John Bear wrote a few books about the subject that I highly recommend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bear

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#70

Post by jonkiddy » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 3:00 AM UTC

I believe that the general public does not understand the term computer science. I also don't believe that any CS grad is better off in the job market as a result of the courses taken, but rather is only highly sought after as a job candidate because of the degree's title. I often wonder if HR/hiring-managers will eventual wake up to the fact that a large part of the work that is typically required for such jobs can be accomplished by any dedicated individual willing to put in the time building a portfolio (aka ~10,000 hours) and then learn on the job.