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How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

billmei.net

11–20 of 189 posts

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#11

The author's comment on access to a mediocre/unknown university instructor for a high fee vs free access to a very good set of lectures (Khan) is one of the doubts that led me to quit my job as a college instructor. I had kind of the existential "what are we doing here?" question -- why are students coming here and paying us money when better instruction is available for free online? Combined with a couple of educati…

Meeting a new and somewhat like-minded group of peers is an element of college that I could not have attained with online coursework.

Also, I personally can not stomach day after day, year after year, of staring at a monitor with talking heads. I just can't do it. Computers are great, but they are only one element of a learning environment.

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#12
Great story! It kind of makes me wonder about my own story to be honest, since I also do not have a CS degree yet I've learned to love coding. I am not really sure what my "dream job" would be though. I've thought about it on a few occasions and I always fall short of coming up with something that really "wow's" me enough to start down a new career path. Would be interested if anyone else has that same sort of existential crisis. I enjoy my job enough that I can't seem to come up with anything else that I'd love doing with my time, but I'm also not "in love" with my current job.

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#13

The author's comment on access to a mediocre/unknown university instructor for a high fee vs free access to a very good set of lectures (Khan) is one of the doubts that led me to quit my job as a college instructor. I had kind of the existential "what are we doing here?" question -- why are students coming here and paying us money when better instruction is available for free online? Combined with a couple of educati…

Because the majority of people in this world, are not the type to proactively self learn things on their own. They require structure, teachers, and environments to force them into learning, and then being told what to do.

Hacker News is a very small slice of proactive individuals, who are what I would consider the exact opposite. A lot of us are constantly trying new things, building new applications, doing whatever to progress. Most of the people that fall into this category, were probably ALREADY programmers, and went to school just to have the special piece of paper. But would do very well without it regardless.

While everyone else is completely content, with going to an office, being told what to do, doing it, coming home, and not doing anything related to computers / software until 830am the next morning. These people went to school to learn to be programmers, so they could get a job, and get paid. That's it.

It's a completely different mentality, and that is why formal education exists. It's the difference between a job, and a passion.

I don't learn very well sitting in a class, and listening to someone yap. I prefer jumping into something, and learning as I go. One project, building upon another.

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#14

The author's comment on access to a mediocre/unknown university instructor for a high fee vs free access to a very good set of lectures (Khan) is one of the doubts that led me to quit my job as a college instructor. I had kind of the existential "what are we doing here?" question -- why are students coming here and paying us money when better instruction is available for free online? Combined with a couple of educati…

I have been teaching a free live code bootcamp on YouTube over the past couple of days (https://lambdaschool.com/mini-bootcamp). I've noticed a couple things:

1. People get stuck. A lot. Especially in the beginning.

Perhaps the biggest difficulty of learning on your own is the "I'm stuck" problem. I learned by hassling people in IRC, but man they were saints and I feel bad for constantly bothering them with my stupid questions. We use Slack to connect the students, and it's a constant flow of people getting stuck and getting help (about 4,000 people in there now).

2. Credentials and requirements have been drilled into students' mind far past a rational level.

I probably get asked 20x/day if we offer a certificate for graduates. I eventually started saying "yes" because so many people would be shaken up if I said "no." I can create a certificate and put your name on it, sure. It's not worth anything, but it's almost a compulsive need people have now.

Along those lines I probably get asked 20x a day if something is "required." I don't understand the mentality of joining a free code bootcamp and asking if something is required, but maybe that's just me.

3. Material isn't the hard part anymore.

I'm sure there are better teachers than us out there, but I'm convinced the number of people who can learn that way are a small fraction of the population. Most people aren't motivated and/or disciplined enough to go through that on their own.

I personally dropped out of college, but if I think back to my Shakespeare class, for example, would I have worked that hard if I were self-educating? Even though I think a lot of the assignments were relatively worthless, there is something about the forcing function of deadlines, social pressure, and working at the same time as peers that really does a lot for human psychology. I can't imagine the other students in any of my classes working that hard to learn anything on their own.

I look at the completion rates of MOOCs and other online programs, and it's tiny. Sure, you might say, some people are just sampling, but I would guess than this doesn't tell the whole story. There's something that's missing from the "here's a book teach yourself" method for most people.

My personal thesis for a high-quality, low-cost education for the masses includes material, but material isn't the point. The point is incentivizing people to do things they normally wouldn't do by "forcing" them to do so somehow.

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#15
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between having an instructor and learning things from a book or video lectures. An instructor can correct your mistakes and give you feedback. A book or a video can't do that. Some people presumably don't have a right kind of discipline to study on their own. This is why remote study programs can be a lot more difficult to complete vs. on-site programs. EDIT: There's a known effect, discussed…

The Open University in the UK has a dropout rate of 87% [1] I'd imagine that's even higher for online courses. I can only speak for myself but I would not have been self-disciplined enough to complete the courses that I did during my undergraduate CS degree. The added bonus was the degree allowed me to emigrate fairly easily. [1] - https://www.timeshighereducation.com/letters/the-open-univer...

[deleted]

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#16
A bit odd to put "dream job" in the title and start the article with a picture of him in the Googleplex...

But in the end find out he doesn't work at Google.

In any case, I meet people on the regular working at top tech companies without a STEM degree, some without any degree at all. The stories are all pretty similar:

1) Teach themselves programming

2) Make lots of actual software

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#17

The author's comment on access to a mediocre/unknown university instructor for a high fee vs free access to a very good set of lectures (Khan) is one of the doubts that led me to quit my job as a college instructor. I had kind of the existential "what are we doing here?" question -- why are students coming here and paying us money when better instruction is available for free online? Combined with a couple of educati…

The actual education part of a university is really a small part of what students leave with. What you're really getting is a network of professors (with ties to employers) and other students that become your friends. Once everyone leaves the university you now have a large network of people that can vouch for your technical knowledge and personality.

What you don't get with an online education is the proximity to other students and professors that facilitate strong relationships.

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#18

The author's comment on access to a mediocre/unknown university instructor for a high fee vs free access to a very good set of lectures (Khan) is one of the doubts that led me to quit my job as a college instructor. I had kind of the existential "what are we doing here?" question -- why are students coming here and paying us money when better instruction is available for free online? Combined with a couple of educati…

I can think of a few reasons. First, because personalized instruction and discussion makes a big difference in actually gaining real understanding. Second, because most people won't push themselves as hard on their own. Third, because having someone with personal knowledge of you and your capabilities means something, especially with online things when cheating is trivial.

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#19
post #16

A bit odd to put "dream job" in the title and start the article with a picture of him in the Googleplex... But in the end find out he doesn't work at Google. In any case, I meet people on the regular working at top tech companies without a STEM degree, some without any degree at all. The stories are all pretty similar: 1) Teach themselves programming 2) Make lots of actual software

My path, with an allegedly irrelevant degree (History and Philosophy of Science) was

1) tinker with computers as a kid

2) go to university and study something I wanted to learn about, randomly learning C in passing (from a friend and a stolen copy of turbo c) because I was interested

3) get a job at a small local ISV, qualified by having a degree in anything and knowing how to write simple code

4) spend 4 years as an apprentice (informally) taking every opportunity to learn

5) get a job at a startup

6) join Microsoft through acquisition

7) ...

Up until step 6, my resume probably didn't look that interesting, but once you have one of the household name software companies on your resume the rest becomes irrelevant

Re: How I got my dream job in the tech industry without a CS degree

#20

The author's comment on access to a mediocre/unknown university instructor for a high fee vs free access to a very good set of lectures (Khan) is one of the doubts that led me to quit my job as a college instructor. I had kind of the existential "what are we doing here?" question -- why are students coming here and paying us money when better instruction is available for free online? Combined with a couple of educati…

I spent 5 years teaching English as a foreign language in a Japanese high school. In Japan, the school system is keen to hire foreigners who are fluent in English because they recognise that their students lack fluency. They think the problem lies in the instructor.

However, the teachers at the school I taught in were almost all very accomplished English speakers. Yes, they had an accent. Yes, they made mistakes. But they were all fluent and proficient to a very high level.

One of the things I asked the teachers was, "How did you get to be fluent in English?" As I expected, not one replied that they became fluent at school. Then I asked, "Where did you learn most of your English?" Again, not one replied that they learned most of their English at school.

In reality, it is impossible to learn English in a classroom. The subject is too big. There are about 1500 common grammar rules in the language, so it is common to ask the students to memorise that grammar. It's achievable in 3-5 years. But you won't get fluency. Neither will you get proficiency with the 20,000 word families that you need to achieve adult level proficiency. In the end you get students who can tell you what a subjunctive clause is (well, they can tell you in Japanese, anyway), but who can't order a drink at MacDonald's.

This is not really a failure of the system because while we can teach fluency, you still won't get students who are proficient to any degree at the end of 3-5 years of classroom study. There just aren't enough hours. The students do not have enough desire or even need to learn the language. Only those who study independently will learn English.... and they would have learned English anyway.

Or would they? At the end of my tenure, I decided to change tracks. Luckily I was given free reign at my school. Instead of teaching English, per se, I taught my students how to learn English on their own. For a 50 minute class I kept my instruction time down to 5 minutes (which was hellishly difficult, I can tell you). The rest of the class was a series of explorations in things like, "If I don't know, how can I find out?", "How do I read a book to get information out of it?", "How do a read a book for pleasure?", "How do I watch TV and understand what's going on?", "How can I improve my pronunciation without paying someone to train me?", etc, etc.

My hope was not that my students could speak English at the end of the class. That was impossible. My hope was that my students would feel, "I can learn English if I want to. I know how to do it." It's now about 5 years since I left teaching and many of my students can speak English very well. Several of them got jobs where speaking English was the key component of their job. I like to think that my classes helped them out, but of course the reality is that the thousands of hours they put in after my course is what taught them English. I hope I was able to nudge them into a place where those thousands of hours were possible for them.

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