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Keep the Internet Open

blog.samaltman.com

41–50 of 415 posts

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#41
post #37

Net Neutrality absolutists need to tone down their rhetoric. When NN activists say zero rating is unfair, they are speaking from an ivory tower. It is better for a poor Iraqi to get free Wikipedia even though that hurts other upstart wikis, than for poor Iraqis to have no Wikipedia at all. Once you accept this premise, you must then accept that exceptions to NN exist. Once you accept that, you must then take every si…

Yes and no. I think it's entirely reasonable for ISPs to innovate, play with zero-rating, etc. I just think it should be done neutrally: if an ISP wants to zero-rate, they should publish a rate schedule that applies to anyone who wants to participate. If an ISP wants to try other novel services (QoS, whatever), I think the same principle should apply: make it fair, reasonable, non-discriminatory, and transparent.

Verizon's zero-rating of themselves is anything but.

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#42
post #20

> But this idea is under attack, and I'm surprised the tech community isn't speaking out more forcefully. Although many leading tech companies are now the incumbents, I hope we'll all remember that openness helped them achieve their great success. It could be disastrous for future startups if this were to change--openness is what made the recent wave of innovation happen. Is it surprising? What organization is suppos…

If there was a tech workers union, presumably it would cover employees at Comcast, Verizon, AT&T, and many other companies they are not pro net neutrality. So it wouldn't even be in the self interest of the union to get into the battle.

It needs to be the consumers who speak up, and the businesses that would be negatively affected.

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#43

Not to put a fly in the soup, but don't utilities charge different rates for different customers? for Example PG&E might have one rate for residential, one for small biz and one for large biz? Not to say that net neutrality is different but comparing it to utilities may not be appropriate given diff classes of customers are granted different kinds of rates and service.

Plus different rates at different times of the day, and in different seasons. We pay less for electricity in the daytime in winter than we do in the daytime in summer when A/C puts greater demands on the network.

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#44
> There's an argument that Internet Service Providers should be able to charge a metered rate based on usage.

For home Utilities, this is based on the fact that, indeed, your usage pattern is a couple of things

1) In the best of Utility markets, electricity has no real elasticity. Electrical demand is a constant game of just simply keep pace with existing demand as much as possible. There is no excess capacity problems per say, as the game is trying to be as efficient as possible.

2) For the most part, people's usage patterns are routinely predicable and stable, so the demand cost associated can be metered reasonably and with relative transparency (Not to say, its completely transparent, because its not, though its very well regulated in comparison to say, internet service access & quality). This allows a relatively consistent and low variable cost of delivery of this service, however its not a 'fixed' cost, with the exception usually of the wiring the house itself to the grid.

3) The device in which a home uses, in fact, can be measured in absolute terms. For instance, your appliances can be calculated to the letter how much they will cost to run (see here, for instance: http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/cost.html). I would argue that this is not true of internet usage, which can vary EXTREMELY widely. The EIA gives a nice summary on this too: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=electrici...

Now, often people will say, reasonably, that in an environment maintained much like the power utilities, if things could be achieved to this level of usage/monitoring/charging for use would make sense. Transparent pricing, easy ways to calculate usage based on the app or app(s) or some other methodology for chunking the pricing structure so its really transparent and stable to price out a month to month usage pattern for the average person. Sounds cool right? Well, here is some notable differences:

(As an aside, for fun, imagine a world where the app had to tell you how much on average it cost to use for an hour on a metered connection, like how energy star rated appliances tell you their yearly cost)

Broadband is a completely different story

1) Wired service has a fixed cost and tons of excess capacity. The cost, while not cheap is fixed, per house or neighborhood, and that infrastructure doesn't have to be changed out for many years, in some cases a decade or more. Once the wired service has been installed to a house, thats it. the ISP then can flip the service on and start delivering product to the homes at virtually no cost after that. There is no ongoing 'generation' of bandwidth to closely meet demand. The technology itself, after all, takes care of all that. All the ISP has to do is run the ship smoothly, but they don't have to build a new bandwidth power plant to make more bandwidth.

2) Which leads me to my second point. There is a ton of bandwidth in the system already. WE know this. The system not only has a fixed cost, but the actual capacity of the wired services being deployed already have a ton of extra bandwidth capacity, in particular if we are talking about home users. From DSL Reports https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Deconstructing-The-Exafl... we get this great line (i encourage everyone to read the full report):

Andrew Odlyzko is one of the nation's top experts on global Internet traffic. Stationed at the University of Minnesota, Odlyzko posts all of his data to his website, and notes that while growth is strong, it doesn't necessitate drastic new pricing model shifts (metered billing), or wailing to the heavens about the dire menace that is P2P traffic. "There is not a single sign of an unmanageable flood of traffic," Odlyzko says. "If anything, a slowdown is visible more than a speedup," he says

And thats just from 2008, and the situation for bandwidth excess capacity has actually improved:

Tech Dirt reports from 2012 (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130118/17425221736/cable...):

The relevant bit, in response to a Michael Powell, a cable industry lobbyist:

If usage caps were about "fairness," carriers would offer the nation's grandmothers a $5-$15 a month tier that accurately reflected her twice weekly, several megabyte browsing of the Weather Channel website. Instead, what we most often see are low caps and high overages layered on top of already high existing flat rate pricing, raising rates for all users. Does raising rates on a product that already sees 90% profit margins sound like "fairness" to you?

Even as far back as 2008, they tried to push the bandwidth hog myth (https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/The-Bandwidth-Hog-is-a-M...):

relevant quote:

Assuming that if disruptive users exist (which, as mentioned above we could not prove) they would be amongst those that populate the top 1% of bandwidth users during peak periods. To test this theory, we crossed that population with users that are over cap (simulating AT&T’s established data caps) and found out that only 78% of customers over cap are amongst the top 1%, which means that one fifth of customers being punished by the data cap policy cannot possibly be considered to be disruptive (even assuming that the remaining four fifths are). Data caps, therefore, are a very crude and unfair tool when it comes to targeting potentially disruptive users. The correlation between real-time bandwidth usage and data downloaded over time is weak and the net cast by data caps captures users that cannot possibly be responsible for congestion. Furthermore, many users who are "as guilty" as the ones who are over cap (again, if there is such a thing as a disruptive user) are not captured by that same net.

Also see this: https://www.publicknowledge.org/news-blog/blogs/myth-bandwid...

3) [Opinion piece here]: Fair and open internet access is in my mind, is going to become a first amendment issue, or at least should be treated as one. The growth and power of being able to be seen, heard, and read on the internet is quickly, as we all know, supplanting most if not all other forms of media. And for the media it is enabling, other mediums that carry forward, like video, are quickly consolidating onto the internet in great numbers. This makes it the place for public speech. While the space may be non-physical (virtual), the ability for ISPs to pick winners and losers to access will have inevitably terrible political and economic consequences, and not just for start ups. Imagine if employees who got cancer from working in an industrial facility could not publish their stories to say, Medium, because a large ISP like Comcast will refuse to carry medium's traffic in and around that issue, or at all, if it becomes a hot bed for other interests that are willing to pay vast sums of money to filter that traffic from ever being delivered or surfacing. Does this sound farfetched? I don't think so. We know groups have tried to do this with newspapers in the past, and of course groups have also tried to do things like pressure individual websites from publishing things to. If you open the internet and mandate its traffic is treated equally regardless, it largely negates the ability for this to happen on that level, as in an ideal implementation, the ISPs would be stripped (and monitored to ensure) that they aren't reading any traffic in the wild that they don't have an explicit reason to do so (Say, a warrant to tap into a connection of a suspected murder looking at their network traffic or something)

4) While we are talking about this, there is no damn spectrum crunch either, its a nice myth that wireless carriers/ISPs are using to justify their underhanded tactics here, because physics dictates there can be a spectrum crunch. that doesn't mean there is or soon will be a spectrum crunch:

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130118/17425221736/cable...

https://www.dslreports.com/shownews/The-Bandwidth-Hog-is-a-M...

https://gigaom.com/2012/01/30/is-the-spectrum-crisis-a-myth/

https://gigaom.com/2012/10/21/the-myth-of-the-wireless-spect...

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/507486/the-spectrum-crunc...

http://www.androidauthority.com/wireless-industry-flipped-bu...

https://www.techdirt.com/blog/wireless/articles/20121004/024...

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#45
post #26

I think the tipping point last time (SOPA/PIPA protests) was when Reddit, Wikipedia, Google, etc. went dark. It's sad we don't have Aaron Swartz to help this time around. It's good to see Sam offering help, but who is actually going to step up?

What's needed for "another Aaron"? I know he had a pre-existing following; is that required? Do you think someone could fill those shoes this time around, starting from scratch?

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#46

Not to put a fly in the soup, but don't utilities charge different rates for different customers? for Example PG&E might have one rate for residential, one for small biz and one for large biz? Not to say that net neutrality is different but comparing it to utilities may not be appropriate given diff classes of customers are granted different kinds of rates and service.

But they don't have one rate for powering refrigerators, a different rate for washing machines, one rate for computers, etc. Nor do they have one rate for Kenmore refrigerators, a different rate for Maytag refrigerators, one rate for Samsung refrigerators.

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#47
post #41
post #37

Net Neutrality absolutists need to tone down their rhetoric. When NN activists say zero rating is unfair, they are speaking from an ivory tower. It is better for a poor Iraqi to get free Wikipedia even though that hurts other upstart wikis, than for poor Iraqis to have no Wikipedia at all. Once you accept this premise, you must then accept that exceptions to NN exist. Once you accept that, you must then take every si…

Yes and no. I think it's entirely reasonable for ISPs to innovate, play with zero-rating, etc. I just think it should be done neutrally: if an ISP wants to zero-rate, they should publish a rate schedule that applies to anyone who wants to participate. If an ISP wants to try other novel services (QoS, whatever), I think the same principle should apply: make it fair, reasonable, non-discriminatory, and transparent. Ver…

I believe Verizon can zero rate their own services, and it's OK. I also believe that they should have to allow zero rating of any service, even a competitor's, if the service provider is willing to pay for their users' data using transparent, open pricing that is equally applied.

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#48
post #37

Net Neutrality absolutists need to tone down their rhetoric. When NN activists say zero rating is unfair, they are speaking from an ivory tower. It is better for a poor Iraqi to get free Wikipedia even though that hurts other upstart wikis, than for poor Iraqis to have no Wikipedia at all. Once you accept this premise, you must then accept that exceptions to NN exist. Once you accept that, you must then take every si…

We're also talking about Net Neutrality in the United States, largely, and I would reckon almost explicitly.

What does that have to do with Iraq and its internet access?? Not that it isn't important. It just has nothing to do with internet access in the United States.

you're not exactly elaborating on how that example applies.

I see no evidence here, yet you claim Net neutrality 'absolutists' need to tone down their rhetoric, and give no cited or strong example as to what is actually wrong with net neutrality.

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#49
Because of the massive amount of consolidation over the last few years, the death of Net Neutrality would be the best competitive moat imaginable for Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc.

While all their CEOs will make faint noises in favor of Net Neutrality, SV outspends Wall Street 2:1 on lobbying[1], the goal of which is to cement monopoly status, not to make the world a better place. Most of it goes to Republicans.

Things have changed fast; Google's lobbying spend has increased by over 50% since the SOPA blackout.

The technology industry serves the interests of capital/share-holders, not technologists.

[1]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-18/outspendi...

EDIT: "Google hardly even had lobbyists back during the SOPA blackout." > "Google's lobbying spend has increased by over 50% since the SOPA blackout." h/t DannyBee below.

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#50
post #37

Net Neutrality absolutists need to tone down their rhetoric. When NN activists say zero rating is unfair, they are speaking from an ivory tower. It is better for a poor Iraqi to get free Wikipedia even though that hurts other upstart wikis, than for poor Iraqis to have no Wikipedia at all. Once you accept this premise, you must then accept that exceptions to NN exist. Once you accept that, you must then take every si…

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