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Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

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Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#61

Post by komali2 »

legohead wrote: post #56

I have a set of rules I give my children. I started with them as kind of a joke because they would always flip out about stuff, so naturally, rule #1 is: 1) Be calm 2) Be kind 3) Don't steal 4) Always attempt your best I've always liked the thought that "don't steal" is the ultimate morality lesson. Killing someone is stealing their life away. Adultering is stealing someone else's love or relationship. And of course,…

I like these rules, but for myself, I always struggle with #4. For a while, "my best" was a half-hearted effort. "Oh well," I'd think, "this is the best I can do." Around college I had a resurgence of willpower, and "my best" became unhealthy obsession - dangerously low calories, dangerously frequent lifting, etc. Finding a balance there is a question I think about often. Technically, "my best" can easily kill me. It's not just about effort, it's about a high amount of thought and consideration into whatever it is - finding a weight target and just choosing a date for it to avoid over-dieting. Taking only so many classes that I can still have a social life. Etc.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#62

Post by Kluny »

Boothroid wrote: post #11

And all this striving towards Chekhov's idea of cultured allows one to achieve what? I'd venture that for most it would amount to smugly patting themselves on the back for having achieved such a fine state of serenity. If this version of cultured means just another way to feel superior to others, I'm happy to be uncultured.

It's a good description of the type of people I like to be around. By extension, it seems like a good way to be a person who makes friends easily.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#63

Post by mden »

wruza wrote: post #57
siberianbear wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there's no possiblity of doing A/B testing. I can't go back and live an alternate life where I didn't touch his nose. So there's no way to know. But I'm enjoying my life, and I'm happy with the life in which I did touch his nose.

There definitely is a way, that's how all research is done. You send three groups there, one that doesn't touch anything, one that touches his nose, and another one that touches nose of the fake statue, without knowing that it is fake. If second group appears to have more luck than the other two over time, then it works.

This unfortunately does not account for different groups having different starting luck. I suppose you can in part handle that by having very large groups but since luck is luck simply the process of selection, even if random, is biased which gives you another problem.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#64

Post by nybblet »

komali2 wrote: post #59

I notice this theme again and again in every "change yourself" book, show, class, lecture. Be it weight loss, improving mental health, curing addiction, becoming a better writer/photographer/programmer, the theme all comes down to a battle against yourself. Fighting the desire to snack, fighting the desire to lay on the couch instead of going to the gym, fighting the desire to veg and watch netflix instead of watchin…

"The Master said, 'The prosecution of learning may be compared to what may happen in raising a mound. If there want but one basket of earth to complete the work and I stop, the stopping is my own work. It may be compared to throwing down the earth on the level ground. Though but one basketful is thrown at a time, the advancing with it is my own going forward.'" (The Analects, translated by Legge)

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#65

Post by makmanalp »

kbenson wrote: post #55
makmanalp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd always had an impression of classical Russian writing as being impenetrable, but this was delightful. Thank you!

I wonder how much of that has to do with it having been translated by people of that period into a classical style of that period. For recent history, maybe that yields "official" translations that are into an older English form that is harder for modern people to read. For example, is a 19th century translation of an ancient Greek text also somewhat impenetrable compared to a more contemporary translation? How much…

Well, there for sure are rows over the best translation of, say, the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. Hays for the enthusiasts, Long for the classicists.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#66

Post by techbio »

komali2 wrote: post #59

I notice this theme again and again in every "change yourself" book, show, class, lecture. Be it weight loss, improving mental health, curing addiction, becoming a better writer/photographer/programmer, the theme all comes down to a battle against yourself. Fighting the desire to snack, fighting the desire to lay on the couch instead of going to the gym, fighting the desire to veg and watch netflix instead of watchin…

I agree, and similarly long to simply think myself to where (I think) I'd like to be.

Learning though, by it's very nature, means fixing what's wrong or implanting knowledge in place where one is "not even wrong".

If it were easier it would be of less value. The supply is more limited than the demand.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#67

Post by vlunkr »

nybblet wrote: post #58

I'm struck by how much this echoes Confucius and the Analects and how they define the so-called gentleman or noble man (not to be confused with nobleman, and translation is hard). Given how unlikely it is that Chekhov had exposure to either, it's incredible to observe the universality of these qualities considered admirable. If people haven't, do recommend checking out The Analects! Caveat: there are quite a few exce…

As well as Christianity. (and maybe 90% of religions?)

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#68

Post by kartem »

geoka9 wrote: post #29
Frondo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, the English "beautiful" often doesn't seem to capture прекрасно. I always took them to have some overlapping meaning, rather than being a direct translation.

> the English "beautiful" often doesn't seem to capture прекрасно I agree, but I'd say "excellent" is even further away in meaning. Translating between such distant languages is always an exercise in compromise, unless you're willing to take great liberties at interpretation (when translating poetry, for example).

Being Russian I suggest "прекрасно" means "perfect" or "excellent" in this context.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#69

Post by nybblet »

johan_larson wrote: post #22

I suspect a subtle mistranslation here. Chekhov seems to be talking about decent people, or maybe good people, not cultured ones. In English, it is quite possible to be cultured but bad. You know all kinds of stuff about literature, music, art, history and science (and therefore you are cultured) but you cheat on your wife and your taxes (and are therefore bad).

Agreed with treve, what does culture really mean? If you read ALL the literature, listen to ALL the music, view ALL the art, can recite ALL the history and do ALL the science... and still conclude it's OK to cheat on your wife and taxes, the argument can be made that none of this culture was internalized, and hence you are not cultured.

Of course things are rarely so black-and-white, but that's the gist of it.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#70

Post by pvg »

bushin wrote: post #7
geoka9 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything in a person should be excellent Probably nitpicking, but I'd translate "прекрасно" as "beautiful" here.

I think "exellent" is an excellent choice of the word (beautiful ≈ красиво).

"excellent" makes it sound like Bill & Ted doing the translation, though. 'first-rate' is a common choice for that quote which is also unsatisfying - without the unwanted English connotations but also without any of the desirable Russian ones.
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