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Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

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Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#621

Post by mc32 »

drewrv wrote: post #353
JakeAl wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walls don't impact legal immigration. They only only impact the proportion of illegal immigrants that sneak across the border.

It would barely impact them. Impoverished people who voyage hundreds of miles through the desert in search of a better life are not going to be deterred by a wall. They'll dig under it, climb over it, or smash right through it if need be.

Border Patrol reports a drop in illegal border crossings of up to 60% [fam units] and 40% indivs, over the last two months compared to the prev year, so it appears that just knowing the chances of deportation are higher is discouraging prospective illegal crossers.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#622

Post by sauronlord »

And "immigrants" killed over 99% of the native North American population with small pox and the like.

We are all immigrants really. I agree with the spirit of what the article is about, but there is a serious Us vs. Them going on here that will not end well.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#623

Post by int_19h »

bluthru wrote: post #334

If you want world prosperity this isn't a simple issue at all. Why should the richest country in the world get richer by taking the best and brightest who could have helped elevate their own countries? Isn't this just contributing to a world stratification of wealth?

People are not resources. They aren't being "taken", unless you're talking about literal kidnapping and forced labor here (which, I believe, last time happened during Operation Paperclip, if we're talking about US). They come to US, because they believe it is a better place for them. If they wanted to "help elevate their own countries", they'd stay there. Coercing them to do so (including indirectly by depriving them of the opportunity to make that choice in the first place) is unethical.

Speaking as an immigrant myself, I don't believe my country wants me. It might want my skills and abilities, sure, but it seems to strongly dislike my liberal political views, and they can't have one without the other. So they get neither.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#624

Post by int_19h »

atomi wrote: post #358
kolbe wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When merely being a person gives you rights to government-issued finite resources, it has to be a utilitarian argument.

You need to be a lawful permanent resident to qualify for any federal public benefits.

Lawful permanent residency is generally the ultimate goal of legal immigration. So if you let a million people in - tourists and (genuinely) temporary workers aside - you have to assume that you'll be dealing with a million permanent residents, and, eventually, citizens, somewhere down the line.

In fact, if that were not the case, it would make things even worse. Imagine if you take a million people, and after a few years, kick most of them out, and only a few get permanent residency. Who would want to build their life around that?

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#625

Post by int_19h »

libdong wrote: post #499
ralmidani wrote: post #155

I'm appalled by the need for statistics showing how "useful" immigrants are. Combating xenophobia should be a moral issue, not a utilitarian one. I understand some people will not be swayed by moral arguments, but society doesn't seem to try anymore. Utilitarian arguments have become the default.

I am equally disappointed when people use moral arguments. The problem is: your morals != my morals. Utilitarianism gives you much more of an objective measure of something, which everyone can discuss on the same premises. This (hopefully) removes the need to resort to the pissing contest that is emotional appeals.

Utilitarianism doesn't actually give you an objective measure. It just shifts the subjectivity towards the definition of terms such as "harm" and "benefit". In case of immigration, this is very prominent: e.g. is cultural diversity beneficial or harmful?

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#626

Post by int_19h »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #190

Good study and all, but I think it misses the point of the current sentiment in the US. Regardless, yes, immigrants are more likely to found businesses than natives. Whether or not their businesses become billion dollar startups because of their efforts or venture capitalists is another question, but yes, they help the economy (As much as those who are a drag on it? Who knows). I wrote a lengthy post about the effect…

You do understand that the implication of your argument is that those people who come to US should be, effectively, forced to stay in their countries of birth, and work for their benefit?

You talk in terms of benefits and drawbacks for societies collectively. What about benefits and drawbacks for individuals? A person who is coming from, say, India to US is doing so because they want to, not because they're forced to. If you deprive them of that ability and that choice, you're harming them - specifically, you're restricting their individual natural right to freedom of association and to pursuit of happiness.

If your claim is that it is unfair, guess what? Forcing people to stay somewhere just because they were born there is also unfair by the same metric. If you're willing to restrict people's choice and force them to associate with a particular society to mitigate that unfairness, why are you only applying those restrictions to immigrants - why not to Americans? Let's send some of the best and brightest Americans to work in India. Oh, they don't want to? Too bad, we have the harmful effects of colonialism to mitigate, and no-one is entitled to live in a developed country until that's done.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#627

Post by int_19h »

rs1234 wrote: post #314
dragonwriter wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, are you seriously, non-ironically using the similarity of the H-1B to indentured servitude as your basis for suggesting that people are wrong to bash the H-1B?

Yes. I am non-ironically suggesting exactly that. Indentured servitude emerged as a solution to a socio-economic need in a bygone era, like the H1B does now. Neither is a perfect system, and all stakeholders concerned - the company, the employee, competing employees, society - get some benefits, some pain. But overall, American society is the net beneficiary of the education, skills, and entrepreneurial drive that im…

People who criticize H1B are not generally criticizing skilled immigration in general. They're pointing out that the way H1B is set up, it's a very poor implementation of skilled immigration, especially when you compare it to other countries (like, say, Canada). The ongoing discussion about switching to a points-based system for workers, for example, necessarily implies that skilled immigration track remains.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#628

Post by int_19h »

eugeneionesco wrote: post #165

How many of them were illegal immigrants? Can't read the article because it's behind a paywall for me.

The difference between someone being legal or illegal immigrant is a passage of a law declaring them such, nothing more. So it doesn't really imply anything else about them (in particular, their capacity to integrate or innovate).

To remind, until 1950s or so, it was basically impossible to legally get US citizenship if you weren't white.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#630

Post by int_19h »

smdz wrote: post #408

By attracting and immigrating the best and brightest, the US actually does injustice towards its citizens. And then its also an unfair act against other countries. The other countries that send immigrants technically stay poorer and weaker - because their talent is gone!!! Make a choice - Do we want to keep pouring in the best and brightest from the globe - or Do we want to keep our citizens employed? - Can't have bo…

> Keep it unsolved and something extreme might happen to resolve it.

Why not speak openly about what you have in mind wrt "resolving it"?

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