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Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

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Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#571

Post by timthelion »

nostrademons wrote: post #416
masondixon wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Authoritarians Why do you think they are authoritarians. I don't get this. The right in the US is about freedom. The left is the part of authoritarianism. The progressive left especially has incredibly tight control of freedom of speech. Everything they don't like is called hate speech, all discussions are shut down, and PC terminology means that it doesn't matter what you say anymore, if you accidentally choose th…

I think it's more accurate that both the extreme right and extreme left are the parties of authoritarianism, and the center is about freedom. Leftists want to police what you say, what you think, how you earn your living, and who you associate with. Rightists want to police what you believe, what you do with your body, what substances you inhale, and how you travel. Both sides would do well with a chill pill and the…

I begg to differ, the tumbler crowd really doesn't define the extreme left very well at all. The real extreme left, like the black panther types and the revolutionary leftist street gang types ect are mostly in prison and therefore don't have much oppinion being heard in public discourse at all. Many of them also don't speak mainstream dialects of English and are therefore rather hard for us white folks to understand.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#572

Post by ice109 »

lumberjack wrote: post #549

All pretension aside, you cannot presume to publicly forment xenophobic sentiments against brown people, implying that they are all kinds of evil, while at the same time presuming to make yourself attractive to highly-skilled tech workers from all around the world. If you embolden racists, they will start harassing and attacking all kinds of non-white people and that includes, legal recidents from all around the worl…

foment

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#573

Post by Arizhel »

drewrv wrote: post #509
Arizhel wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to know a guy in Phoenix, Arizona who grew up in Edmonton, Canada. He made tons of money with the business he created. It seems like he fit in just fine, thanks to his command of English (his service business would have gotten nowhere if he didn't speak English), and an invention called "air conditioning" let him deal with the 100 degree heat, just like every other person in that metro area. Honestly, your com…

> Honestly, your comment about moose hunting is downright offensive. It's supposed to be: the whole idea of allowing only people who are a good "cultural fit" is offensive. That's the point I was refuting. Determining "cultural fit" requires absurd stereotypes. The idea that Mexicans can't find a place in our country is as absurd as the idea that Canadians can't.

No, it's really not; it's wishful thinking on your part. When someone doesn't even speak the language that most of the host country uses, they're going to have a harder time integrating than someone who does (esp. if they speak it natively, as almost all non-Quebec Canadians do). Thinking otherwise is just fantasy. I'm not saying "there's no place for them", but we're talking about the ease of integration into a new host country here. It's always easier to adapt to and get along in a country where you speak the native language, can talk to most everyone, and can read all the signs, and understand most of the predominant culture, than to go someplace that's completely alien to you and you can't talk to many people and can't even read the signs anywhere.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#574

Post by smsm42 »

timthelion wrote: post #551
ptaipale wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Berlin Wall was really about keeping people in. Make no mistake about it. It was erected as a response to losing too many people through emigration [0]. Can you say the same about U.S. border control? Hardly. There's a very big difference between a wall that keeps unwanted people out and a wall that keeps wanted (or everyone) in by force. In the latter case, even if you have whatever freedom you wish outside the…

> In the latter case, even if you have whatever freedom you wish outside the wall, you can have it. In the former, you cannot. That is obviously and blatantly false. If the world turns hardcore nationalist, then it will be impossible for Americans to move elsewhere, because all countries will have strict imigration policies. How would you move to Mexico if Mexico doesn't allow for imigration? Where would you go?

Having immigration policy and not allowing immigration at all is not the same thing. Even Japan, whose immigration policies are very strict, has both sizeable number of foreign workers and immigrants too. US currently has very open immigration policy (1M immigrating every year) and a problem enforcing the immigration laws it has (tens of millions of illegal immigrants). It's a long distance between this and "no immigration" and there are many points on this way which one could choose to stay in.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#575

Post by smsm42 »

gumby wrote: post #384
rdl wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't be hard to have an immigration system which is biased toward useful vs. not useful. The question is: where do you want to have the cutoff? I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), combined with a transparent and straightforward points-based system for mainly immigrant visas. I'd eliminate the inherent racism in the current system (penalizing India and China vs. Equatorial Gui…

> I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), Having lived on the east side of Berlin (post Wall!) I cannot forget that that wall was supposedly built to keep people out but of course it kept people in . I am Australian, and I have to admit the points based system does work there...but. I have lived longest in the USA where the chaos has been beneficial for the country, and thus for me. Aus…

> I cannot forget that that wall was supposedly built to keep people out

As far as I know, the Berlin wall was always supposed to keep people in. Strict exit restrictions was common in all soviet regimes, including one in DDR.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#576

Post by [deleted] »

gozur88 wrote: post #554
xapata wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not obvious at all. I thought we were sharing a frustration for the recent trend in politics to make implications rather than explicit statements. I didn't think I was assigning new meaning, but only exactly what Bannon intended. I can, obviously, never be certain I've understood him correctly, so I just make my best guess. It's reasonable to expect that different people will make different guesses. What is your inte…

>I didn't think I was assigning new meaning, but only exactly what Bannon intended. I can, obviously, never be certain I've understood him correctly, so I just make my best guess. Why are you guessing at all? Why are you assuming he isn't saying what he means? >What is your interpretation of Bannon's words? What they mean in English.

[deleted]

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#577

Post by xapata »

gozur88 wrote: post #554
xapata wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not obvious at all. I thought we were sharing a frustration for the recent trend in politics to make implications rather than explicit statements. I didn't think I was assigning new meaning, but only exactly what Bannon intended. I can, obviously, never be certain I've understood him correctly, so I just make my best guess. It's reasonable to expect that different people will make different guesses. What is your inte…

>I didn't think I was assigning new meaning, but only exactly what Bannon intended. I can, obviously, never be certain I've understood him correctly, so I just make my best guess. Why are you guessing at all? Why are you assuming he isn't saying what he means? >What is your interpretation of Bannon's words? What they mean in English.

> What they mean in English

Let's pretend English is my second language. Could you paraphrase Bannon to help me understand him more clearly?

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#578

Post by smsm42 »

jacquesm wrote: post #168
rdl wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't be hard to have an immigration system which is biased toward useful vs. not useful. The question is: where do you want to have the cutoff? I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), combined with a transparent and straightforward points-based system for mainly immigrant visas. I'd eliminate the inherent racism in the current system (penalizing India and China vs. Equatorial Gui…

> I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall") Walls going up are days of sadness. Walls broken down are days of joy. The thing to keep in mind here is that such walls built to keep others out can be used just as easily to keep the locals in (on either side).

I'm pretty sure if a wall in your house goes down it'd be a day of sadness for you. They say good fences make good neighbors, but it also depends on the neighborhoods (btw, check out rich houses - do they have walls and fences? do they have gates? do they have another gate around the community?) - and if you have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tijuana_Cartel as your neighbors, you may think a wall going up between you and them is not such a bad thing.

> The thing to keep in mind here is that such walls built to keep others out can be used just as easily to keep the locals in (on either side).

Somehow I'm not too worried about not being able to escape from the US to Mexico and the US trying to keep me in. I think you need to rob a bank or something to make that happen?

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#579

Post by flukus »

rdtsc wrote: post #216
bayesian_horse wrote: post #32

One of the basic premises of anti-immigrant policies is that you can somehow influence the ratio of "useful" vs "not-useful" immigrants. Apart from the idea of sorting people into useful and useless being inhumane, it also seems to be counterproductive. It looks like every kind of screening of immigrants will deter the more desirable ones, as far as that determination is possible on their arrival at all.

Don't most countries implement some sort of merit-based immigration? "We want educated people with degrees from this age range?". Don't employees do that as well - "we want people with these qualifications"... is that terribly wrong?

Yes, but you end up having waiters with titles like "customer service manager".

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#580

Post by armenarmen »

ralmidani wrote: post #155

I'm appalled by the need for statistics showing how "useful" immigrants are. Combating xenophobia should be a moral issue, not a utilitarian one. I understand some people will not be swayed by moral arguments, but society doesn't seem to try anymore. Utilitarian arguments have become the default.

That's all well and good. But do you think that telling people who are apprehensive about immigration (for any reason) that they are wrong/dumb/stupid is likely to change their opinion?

Or do you think that having a stranger tell them that they are a wrong/dumb/stupid person for feeling a way will further alienate them and reinforce their current opinion?

Is honey better than vinegar?

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