Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

theintercept.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 300 posts

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#171

Post by youdontknowtho »

luck_fenovo wrote: post #162
youdontknowtho wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus Christ. Who do you think you can influence? Do you honestly believe that you can sway enough republicans to get anything important done? People who don't see the republicans for what they are is pretty bizarre to me. We have a two party system. Which one do you think you could have an impact on?

We just had an election where millions of people had a huge impact on the Republican party by rejecting the candidate selected by the establishment (Jeb) and overwhelmingly preferring the candidate the establishment fought tooth and nail to torpedo. On the other hand you have the party who rigged their primaries to ensure that their neoconservative warhawk could be elected. Which one do you think you could have an im…

Jesus, that's dumb.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#172

Post by grandalf »

ajross wrote: post #170
grandalf wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a thread about unacceptable reach of executive power This is true no matter who is in charge. > top comment a defense of the sitting president It is not a defense, but if you perceive it that way you reveal your own bias. It is merely a point about the relevance of a FISA warrant when reasoning about the issue. > the wielder of such power) Of course, my caution about the irrelevance of FISA warrants applies equally…

> I'm not really sure how to respond to your characterization of the Snowden revelations as a unrelated political scandal. Which should have been your clue that you whiffed on the point. "Obummer tapped my phones!" is the unrelated political scandal. If you don't want to be dinged for derailing the discussion, you could have jumped into a discussion about FISA/DoJ vs. NSA surveillance via any other technique. Instead…

> "See? Trump was right!" rathole. And here we are.

Not at all. I don't care whether Trump was right, but I do care whether we have a system where an audit can be done that can actually provide reassurance that inappropriate surveillance is not being done. Note that I am not arguing that surveillance of Trump (if it occurred) was even inappropriate, since there were widespread concerns about his ties with Russia, and the administration in office at the time had an obligation to provide due diligence.

There has been very little focus on the rule of law and limits to the surveillance state. Trump is not a privacy advocate, but nevertheless his remark made some of the relevant issues around unchecked surveillance timely.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#173

Post by youdontknowtho »

3131s wrote: post #105
youdontknowtho wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus Christ. Who do you think you can influence? Do you honestly believe that you can sway enough republicans to get anything important done? People who don't see the republicans for what they are is pretty bizarre to me. We have a two party system. Which one do you think you could have an impact on?

Your comments in this thread are repetitive and totally devoid of content. The one above is a non sequitur that is unnecessarily aggressive. I think it is you not paying attention if you haven't noticed yet that Democrats and Republicans are nearly the same and equally blunderous and corrupted. They both support war, surveillance, mass incarceration, mass deportation, drug prohibition, and more. Barack Obama was a te…

I'm not saying republicans are corrupt. Democrats are corrupt. I can work with corrupt. Republicans are crazy and dangerous. Keep fiddling while Rome burns. Hopefully no one will be aggressive to you...but then you never really had to worry about that did you?

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#174

Post by dredmorbius »

sctb wrote: post #115
youdontknowtho wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that the reason politics is fucked is that one party is an apocalyptic cult. The Republicans have given up on governance. Change is not possible when one party is willing to defy any norms. I wish it wasn't that way, but unless the right wing is broken as a political block, nothing is possible...

If we're going to have the occasional political discussion on Hacker News, we're going to have to please refrain from calling names like "apocalyptic cult".

When that's what senior GOP officials are calling the party themselves, and have been for years, well before the recent election cycle, and how it's referred to in mainstream media, you might care to reconsider your position.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-apocalypti...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/lets-just-say-it-the...

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/mehdi-hasan/2011/09/republ...

http://www.thehypertexts.com/Republican%20Insanity.htm

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201...

There is such a thing as false balance.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#175

Post by grandalf »

willstrafach wrote: post #166
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes a lot of chutzpah to make that kind of defense of the IC in 2017. It is also incredibly insulting to imply that nobody was aware of or upset about any of this before Snowden. What's clear to see is that when these concerns were being hashed out, the Tom Drakes and Bill Binneys lost. What won was so bad that we haven't even discovered the bounds of their malfeasance. The mistrust that the IC has rightly earne…

> There is no proper oversight, not for any reasonable definition of the word. Could you elaborate on what practices you precisely take issue with? If it is regarding domestic telephony metadata collection, I am in agreement and I am glad that the USA Freedom Act restricted that. Otherwise, I don't really know how to answer you as you haven't stated any specific problem that you have. Additionally, I'm not so sure my…

> Additionally, I'm not so sure my reply is that great of a defense, I am only stating facts because I do not believe that spreading misconceptions is very helpful to discussion on this kind of topic.

This is an interesting point. Over the past few years I've come to think that the most responsible perspective to adopt as a citizen is that officials and government are all, to some extent, bad actors who deserve a good measure of scrutiny and accountability.

The biggest breakdown in the democratic process has been a lack of appreciation on the part of the public for all that we consent to by not actively dissenting and demanding answers and accountability.

Frankly, the response by officials to the Snowden revelations was deeply embarrassing to our nation.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#176

Post by [deleted] »

datatan wrote: post #96
youdontknowtho wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great. Another half thought out cliché. That really helps. Thanks. Meanwhile the Republicans have been focused and disciplined for decades on policies that screw everyone but a few. The democrats are corrupt, but you can work with corrupt. The republicans have a well financed ideology machine that polices itself for dissention. Hopefully your trite cliché will disarm them and convince them that your aren't a pointy h…

You're completely hopeless. Grow up and stop acting like a petulant stuck up spoiled little brat.

[deleted]

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#177

Post by bendbro »

optimuspaul wrote: post #129
mason240 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely disingenuous to characterize his role as "continued policy begun by previous administration" when his Vice President wrote the core legislation of the Patriot Act, he was actively working to expand those policies for 8 years, and one of his very last acts was to issue an EO further entrenching them.

Citations needed.

Here's some literature on the Omnibus, Mr. Optimus.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Counterterrorism_Act...

https://www.cnet.com/news/joe-bidens-pro-riaa-pro-fbi-tech-v...

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#178

Post by dredmorbius »

willstrafach wrote: post #106
rbg246 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No i don't think it is the job of an intelligence agency to spy on the rest of the world's citizens and i think its a terrible idea to normalise this behaviour as such or to somehow make it sound ethical. The everyone else is doing it defence does not change the unethical nature of the action.

I am curious how you would define "spying" though. - Should NGA not use imaging satellites to keep track of national disasters and environmental issues? - Should NGA not use imaging satellites for nuclear non-proliferation monitoring? - Should DoD not have digital sensors at the egress points of their networks to gather information on attacks by foreign actors? - Should NSA not monitor the communications of foreign a…

Generally: false equivalence, excluded middle.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#179

Post by youdontknowtho »

sctb wrote: post #115
youdontknowtho wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that the reason politics is fucked is that one party is an apocalyptic cult. The Republicans have given up on governance. Change is not possible when one party is willing to defy any norms. I wish it wasn't that way, but unless the right wing is broken as a political block, nothing is possible...

If we're going to have the occasional political discussion on Hacker News, we're going to have to please refrain from calling names like "apocalyptic cult".

I'm not the one that came up with that term. I think it was Norm Ornstein?

What I don't understand is how you think you can have a discussion with one side willing to do anything to subvert your position. My point is that republicans have been playing to win and Democrats have been playing along. If you value science or secular society there isn't another choice. You have to oppose them.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#180

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

willstrafach wrote: post #166
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes a lot of chutzpah to make that kind of defense of the IC in 2017. It is also incredibly insulting to imply that nobody was aware of or upset about any of this before Snowden. What's clear to see is that when these concerns were being hashed out, the Tom Drakes and Bill Binneys lost. What won was so bad that we haven't even discovered the bounds of their malfeasance. The mistrust that the IC has rightly earne…

> There is no proper oversight, not for any reasonable definition of the word. Could you elaborate on what practices you precisely take issue with? If it is regarding domestic telephony metadata collection, I am in agreement and I am glad that the USA Freedom Act restricted that. Otherwise, I don't really know how to answer you as you haven't stated any specific problem that you have. Additionally, I'm not so sure my…

USA Freedom act isn't reform, it's a post getting caught minor change of and extension of the Patriot act. Reporting is still voluntary for all practical purposes. Oversight of FISC matters is still the domain of the same FISC that did close to nothing to stop the rampant abuse, except maybe give cover.

My biggest issue is the mixing of the NSA's surveillance power with domestic law enforcement.

As for your facts you've made some very loquatious attempts​. I'm skeptical as to the actual number of facts contained therein.

Post reply on HN