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Scotland to seek second independence referendum

bbc.com

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Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#301

Post by Boothroid »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #295
Boothroid wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to remember plenty of noise from the SNP about how Brexit would/has unleashed racist forces, but apparently the same argument doesn't apply to Scottish independence because it's not possible to be racist towards the English.

That's perhaps a semantic argument if any is! I'm not sure I could support the view that the two referenda are directly comparable in that sense. There has been no noise from the Scottish government about 'too many English here' or anything like that - rather more along the lines of everybody being welcome in a self-determining country. Contrast that with the dog-whistle EU campaign, with the 'new border with Iraq' l…

Yellow? Does that mean cowardly or something else?

I don't see the problem with those communications - they reflect the truth! There are hundreds of thousands of economic migrants - don't tell me they are all refugees, because the evidence simply does not support this - that once in the EU are able to make their way to Calais etc. with little difficulty. These migrants come from a culture that is very different to our own and many struggle to adapt (e.g. the New Year rapes in Cologne, news of which suppressed by the German media with complicity from BBC and other international sources). Don't we have a right to be concerned about the prospect of thousands upon thousands of immigrants arriving specifically due to their background, if their culture is one that is in some parts actively hostile to our own way of life? I have to say when either side lines up to spread propaganda it's scary, and regarding Brexit the consensus and weight of propaganda was definitely coming from the establishment Remain cohort.

One question that never seems to get answered by Remainers is the question of how many is too many - they are desperate to tell us about how immigration is a net benefit to the economy etc. To take this to its logical extreme, why then don't we just abolish all border controls and invite anyone to come? Because surely all immigration is a net benefit! We all know this is a ridiculous idea. With that agreed, the question is just about numbers. For some reason that's a debate the left seems to be terrified by.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#302

Post by T-A »

Boothroid wrote: post #297
T-A wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/uk-economy-... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-03-01/after-bre... https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-02-27/u-k-s... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/23/net-migratio...

Firstly, the Grauniad is hardly an unbiased source these days, sadly. Secondly excuse me if I'm sceptical about the predictions of economists. Thirdly, your second source trots out a tired myth of remainers - that leaving the EU means we will not be able to fill low skilled work. It means nothing of the sort - it just means that we can choose what low skilled workers we let in, and if we want to continue to offer EU…

> the Grauniad is hardly an unbiased source these days

The surveys in question were compiled by Markit.

> we can choose what low skilled workers we let in

You seem to have missed the point: they don't want in, they are already leaving:

The June 23 referendum vote to leave the EU has already affected Gorton’s business: About 10 of his Eastern European employees have gone home.

“They were coming to us the next day and saying, ‘Crikey, this is not good for us, we’re not wanted in the U.K.,”’ he said. “Within a week of the vote, we saw people leave and go back to Poland and Lithuania. Ever since then, it’s become a lot harder to find the people we need.”

> your third source contains only predictions about the return of Polish citizens

Based on trends already observed.

> your fourth source reflects a mixed picture

Because it covers the period in the year to September, i.e. only 3 months after the referendum vs 9 preceding it. The trend break is quite visible in the chart:

https://interactive.guim.co.uk/charts/embed/feb/2017-02-23T1...

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#303

Post by Normal_gaussian »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #244
Normal_gaussian wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in the north of England, Cumbria to be exact. My extended family are all in the north of Scotland. There is no doubt in my mind that the loser in all of this is the north of England. They are repeatedly denied a voice, publicly scorned, and they see all their talent move south or abroad. England is a lopsided country and I don't know how to fix it.

> the loser in all of this is the north of England. They are repeatedly denied a voice Well, they had their voice, they cast their lot, they were the deciding vote for Brexit. Now they can lie in the bed they made for themselves. No pity lost from anyone up beyond the Wall or down in the South.

Don't be so stupid.

People throwing the towel in and blaming others for everything that is wrong is how we've ended up in this political mess. No leaders. No vision. Just pity and blame.

The North of England has consistently been stripped of its talent for the last fifty years. To blame them for wanting change and not being attracted to the same campaign you were is idiotic.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#304

Post by Boothroid »

T-A wrote: post #302
Boothroid wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, the Grauniad is hardly an unbiased source these days, sadly. Secondly excuse me if I'm sceptical about the predictions of economists. Thirdly, your second source trots out a tired myth of remainers - that leaving the EU means we will not be able to fill low skilled work. It means nothing of the sort - it just means that we can choose what low skilled workers we let in, and if we want to continue to offer EU…

> the Grauniad is hardly an unbiased source these days The surveys in question were compiled by Markit. > we can choose what low skilled workers we let in You seem to have missed the point: they don't want in, they are already leaving: The June 23 referendum vote to leave the EU has already affected Gorton’s business: About 10 of his Eastern European employees have gone home. “They were coming to us the next day and…

> the Grauniad is hardly an unbiased source these days

The surveys in question were compiled by Markit.

>> Sure, and I'll bet it's possible to find statistics that prove the opposite if you look hard enough. Not to mention the fact that as things change, so the country will adapt.

> we can choose what low skilled workers we let in

You seem to have missed the point: they don't want in, they are already leaving:

The June 23 referendum vote to leave the EU has already affected Gorton’s business: About 10 of his Eastern European employees have gone home.

“They were coming to us the next day and saying, ‘Crikey, this is not good for us, we’re not wanted in the U.K.,”’ he said. “Within a week of the vote, we saw people leave and go back to Poland and Lithuania. Ever since then, it’s become a lot harder to find the people we need.”

>> So then we have to pay a little more for our fruit and veg. I'd be more than happy to do this if it means we are not sending billions in CAP money towards preserving the bucolic complacency of rural France.

> your third source contains only predictions about the return of Polish citizens

Based on trends already observed.

>> Oh no, the Poles are going! Well I suppose that means indigenous Brits will be able to see their doctor in a timely manner, and the first language in our school classes might revert to English again, etc.

> your fourth source reflects a mixed picture

Because it covers the period in the year to September, i.e. only 3 months after the referendum vs 9 preceding it. The trend break is quite visible in the chart:

https://interactive.guim.co.uk/charts/embed/feb/2017-02-23T1....

>> I wouldn't put my mortgage on it: 'Note: 2016 data is provisional'

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#305

Post by OJFord »

Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

> But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave.

Actually, a poll yesterday suggested 56% do not want a referendum at this stage.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/13/half-scots-do-not...

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#306

Post by OJFord »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #154
Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

Aside: It interests me that you sign yourself as English and call yourself a unionist. I'm British by nationality through official designation and consider all of the UK to be my home country. Also the English-Welsh alliance. The counties that we call Wales have been annexed to the lands of the English Crown, as were Yorkshire or Cornwall (say), for a millennium or so. It saddens me that this has to be thought of as…

> Aside: It interests me that you sign yourself as English and call yourself a unionist. I'm British

I don't think that's interesting in the context of this discussion, it's shorter that "I'm British but not from Scotland".

The interesting thing to me is that it's only we English who feel the pressure to identify as 'British', say 'UK', et al. - Scots say so, Unionist or not.

It's a funny outcome after centuries of 'England' being used to refer to the whole union (and even the Empire, I believe) - but it changed some time in the last century or so, and now "you must get it right or you'll offend Scots!" is instilled into us in schools such that we even err on the side of UK.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#307

Post by OJFord »

biofox wrote: post #37
pjc50 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Union has long operated as internal colonialism; this is just the next step in de-colonising the system. It'll be interesting to see how often Conservative ministers promise that there will be no border between UK and ROI but there will be a hard border between England and Scotland, despite none of this making any sense.

On the point of internal colonialism: it might have been true once, but certainly not true today. All of the countries in the union have seats in Westminster, dedicate ministers and committees, as well as their own devolved parliaments. I'd say things are much worse for counties in the North of England, than for the other countries in the UK. The nature of democracy means the majority rules, which will always be prob…

> All of the countries in the union have ... their own devolved parliaments.

England?

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#308

Post by michalskop »

cmdkeen wrote: post #124
falsedan wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland already has three banks issuing their own bank notes (backed by GBP on deposit in their vaults). Independence wouldn't change that, except that the names on the notes would have to be changed from Pounds Stirling.

Those banks also have access to the Bank of England as a lender of last resort and the international market's backing for the UK's current economic policy. Scotland has a fairly developed financial sector, the currency issue is a lot more complicated than "pick one". Pegging your currency to another when you don't have the fundamentals to match it tends to be of interest to George Soros, especially when you don't hav…

Bulgarian or Bosnian currencies as well as many central African ones are pegged to Euro since the times of German mark and French frank. And suggered no "Sorosian" attack so far.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#309

Post by dang »

kingmanaz wrote: post #289
toor2 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not trying to make a political stance here. I don't disagree that the media is controlled by be an elite minority. I was simply pointing out that the rhetoric you just spewed is meaningless in this context and contributed nothing of substance to the conversation. I suppose I am at fault here as well. I shouldn't have given such a useless comment the dignity and value provided by a response.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion Enjoy your delusion!

Commenting like this will get your account banned here, so please don't do it again.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#310

Post by zigzigzag »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #255
zigzigzag wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't 'racism' technically, you're right. Perhaps more like a mild form of bigotry. You might strongly disagree, but the SNP routinely phrases independence like this: Scotland will be "fairer" if it is independent i.e. the English who keep outvoting us are nasty and "unfair" by nature. There are lots of quotes from people like Salmond and Sturgeon along those lines. What they mean is "we disagree with the dominant…

I'm baffled by what form you think a separatist political argument could possibly take, in that case.

There are lots of political arguments that don't involve ridiculous generalisations about entire populations. Look at Brexit; the arguments revolved around business regulation, local decision making and relieving the pressure of mass migration on social services. None of these things involved describing all Europeans as bad/unfair/etc - not even the immigration part.
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