Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#511

Post by ptaipale » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #384

rdl wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't be hard to have an immigration system which is biased toward useful vs. not useful. The question is: where do you want to have the cutoff? I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), combined with a transparent and straightforward points-based system for mainly immigrant visas. I'd eliminate the inherent racism in the current system (penalizing India and China vs. Equatorial Gui…

> I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), Having lived on the east side of Berlin (post Wall!) I cannot forget that that wall was supposedly built to keep people out but of course it kept people in . I am Australian, and I have to admit the points based system does work there...but. I have lived longest in the USA where the chaos has been beneficial for the country, and thus for me. Aus…

The Berlin Wall was really about keeping people in. Make no mistake about it. It was erected as a response to losing too many people through emigration [0].

Can you say the same about U.S. border control? Hardly.

There's a very big difference between a wall that keeps unwanted people out and a wall that keeps wanted (or everyone) in by force.

In the latter case, even if you have whatever freedom you wish outside the wall, you can have it. In the former, you cannot.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall#Erection_of_the_in...

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#512

Post by protomyth » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #296

protomyth wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Alright settle down there. Racism exists enough that you don't have to go looking for it. It's a fact that in many places, Native Americans are the only people allowed to own casinos, so it's an entirely accurate statement. Likewise, there's no law saying Native Americans can't own other businesses, so the only businesses that are reliably exclusive to Native Americans are casinos." Las Vegas and Atlantic City might…

Point to any business type that has state of federal laws saying "Native Americans are not allowed to own this kind of business" or even "only white people are allowed to own this business". Can you name 10? How about 5? How about just one? On the other hand, I can name one where the vast majority of business are only allowed by law to be owned by native americans. Yes, LV and AC have a lot of casinos, but I can coun…

Look, I'm not going to argue with some theoretical construct

Point is, "casinos are the only business that can be exclusive to Native Americans" is a true statement"

Is false, ask the current President or visit Las Vegas or Atlantic City. It was a cheap shot that is acceptable because one group can be put in other. Also, Native Americans cannot just open casinos. A tribe can if the state allows it.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#513

Post by alehul » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:10 PM UTC

atomi wrote: post #270

gwern wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reference is irrelevant because it doesn't break down by country and you are pulling exactly the equivocation BS I just demonstrated OP was doing. Please reread my comment if you don't understand why you cannot justify current immigration policy by pointing at immigration averages or totals without reference to country.

The statistic from SBA includes _ALL_ immigrants, including those you seem to despise.

I think the argument he was posing was that those statistics are carried by immigrants who won't be affected by the policies in discussion.

When you say it includes all immigrants, do you mean it includes the groups that would be affected when isolated from the rest, or overall?

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#514

Post by stale2002 » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:10 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #439

stale2002 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then pay them 50$ an hour. I know tons of people who'd take that job. Raise it to 100$ an hour and I'll volunteer to do it myself. If prices go up, then prices go up. Supply and demand.

Let's use logic here. What happens to the price of strawberries if the price of labor goes up 5-10x? Which people are most affected by the change in price?

The price of strawberries will go up by 10% then.

Labor is a small part of the total costs of farming. Large amounts of costs are in capital equipment, land, packaging, retail location selling and transportation.

If you are really worried about high priced items that affect poor people, then perhaps we should be getting more immigrants that create these expensive things like healthcare.

If you are a doctor, they should automatically approve your visa application. Lets drive down that price of healthcare! If you make 100k+, auto approval as well. More tax money please! NOT strawberry workers though.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#515

Post by gumby » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:15 PM UTC

adrianratnapala wrote: post #436

gumby wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), Having lived on the east side of Berlin (post Wall!) I cannot forget that that wall was supposedly built to keep people out but of course it kept people in . I am Australian, and I have to admit the points based system does work there...but. I have lived longest in the USA where the chaos has been beneficial for the country, and thus for me. Aus…

Well, I am inclined to like creative destruction and open borders too. But Australia and the US are democracies -- they are ruled by the people, most of whom seem to like a bit more orderliness. Now if the democratic process is producing something like the White Australia Policy[1] then we have cause to cry out our moral censure from the rooftops. But whatever your view on the current points system, that's just a pol…

In fact I first left Australia (with my parents) because of the WAP, which impacted me even before I was conceived (one of my parents was neither "W" nor "A" so the "P" caused problems). I still have an (older) Aussie neighbor around the corner in Palo Alto who has told me I'm a wog.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#516

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:16 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #98

bayesian_horse wrote: post #32

One of the basic premises of anti-immigrant policies is that you can somehow influence the ratio of "useful" vs "not-useful" immigrants. Apart from the idea of sorting people into useful and useless being inhumane, it also seems to be counterproductive. It looks like every kind of screening of immigrants will deter the more desirable ones, as far as that determination is possible on their arrival at all.

It wouldn't be hard to have an immigration system which is biased toward useful vs. not useful. The question is: where do you want to have the cutoff? I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), combined with a transparent and straightforward points-based system for mainly immigrant visas. I'd eliminate the inherent racism in the current system (penalizing India and China vs. Equatorial Gui…

You didn't get my point. I was alleging any kind of screening will keep those away which you would deem desirable.

Also, despite having probably the most easily "defendable" borders, Canada has quite the population of undocumented immigrants and refugees. Sure they talk a great game of selecting immigrants. But that mostly applies to those who don't come over the southern border or just overstay their visa.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#517

Post by cromwellian » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:16 PM UTC

masondixon wrote: post #354

cromwellian wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Than why so many leaked memos show that Bannon and Miller want to reduce family Visas for those already legally here? Why is Bannon and Miller's favorite novel a racist French book about Europe becoming less white? Why when Bannon was interviewed on radio he said he wanted to bring the numbers on legal immigration way down? You're fooling yourself if you think this is just about undocumented Mexicans, Muslims…

> Than why so many leaked memos show that Bannon and Miller want to reduce family Visas for those already legally here? From http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/1/14773298/mer... : "Reforming the immigration system to be more “merit-based” is predicated on the idea that some of these slots are going to the wrong immigrants — immigrants who don’t have as much to give the US as the US has to give them. Propon…

> I could not find the quote from Bannon or Miller saying that "Camp of the Saints is my favourite novel"? Where can I find this?

So you are able to dig up quotes supporting your spin, but couldn't run a Google search finding a quote on Camp of the Saints?

Here, this HuffPo article links directly to SoundCloud interviews where you can hear him say it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/steve-bannon-camp-of-the...

Re: This is about "merit" >He is talking about H1-B visa abuse, just as the OP says.

Trump: Trump [...] asked him about keeping “our talented people in the country,” especially international graduates of Ivy League universities.

Bannon: “When two-thirds or three-quarters of the CEOs in Silicon Valley are from South Asia or from Asia, I think...” Bannon responded before trailing off, according to the Post.

Yeah, fake news, from the horses mouth himself.

Do you really think American citizens are having tough time finding work because of H1-B abuse? The unemployment rate in the tech industry fell to 2% in 2016, well below the level of full employment. The median salary is $90k nationally, and >$100k in major tech centers (CA, NY, TX, etc). Sure, H1-B abuse should be reduced, but more because it hurts companies truly trying to fill requirement positions to build products, by fly-by-night consulting firms.

Speaking of someone in the tech industry for 20+ years, I'd say the biggest problem isn't the immigrants, it's the education system and the culture. It is not the fault of immigrants that Americans aren't getting advanced degrees, or that entire Phd departments are F-1 Visas, or that so many native born candidates are lack luster. American culture's "melting pot" could benefit from an infusion of immigrant culture from those who are still hungry and have a very high valuation placed on education and grit.

Keeping them out just makes us weak and complacent.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#518

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:18 PM UTC

xbmcuser wrote: post #241

rdl wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't do effective overstay tracking.

For effective tracking you will need a national Id card for us nationals. That is something many different groups in the US are against for different reasons. Such an id could solve a lot of other problems and of course will create its own problems. But I think the net benefit outweighs the loss.

I think the Republicans would object, because then too many undesirables could vote in elections.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#519

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:20 PM UTC

muninn_ wrote: post #108

rdl wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't be hard to have an immigration system which is biased toward useful vs. not useful. The question is: where do you want to have the cutoff? I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), combined with a transparent and straightforward points-based system for mainly immigrant visas. I'd eliminate the inherent racism in the current system (penalizing India and China vs. Equatorial Gui…

Yeah I mean, the problem is that we can't afford to "let them all in", so how do you decide who to let in? An immigration policy that is held be numerous other countries that favors skilled immigrants seems to be reasonable. On the other hand, brain drain. How will those countries continue to get better and enjoy a modern standard of living if all the smart people leave?

Smart people migrate somewhere else because they are more productive there. Usually they even send back more money than they would earn in their home country.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#520

Post by xt_cube » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:21 PM UTC

This argument is weak...

In my humble opinion not only are we doing a terrible job at educating our youth; but we are also condemning large numbers of them to a live of poverty.

Who is to say what our underprivileged youth could accomplish with the proper support and education?

Yes, this country was built by immigrants; but things have changed, we must accept that. Long gone are the days of prosperity for all. I would argue that today, our system is failing large portions of the population and addressing these failures should be our top concern.

The current environment of despair and hopelessness that suffocates many Americans makes it difficult to have a constructive dialog about immigration. Would you have this discussion in Flint, Michigan? Do homeless veterans have access to free Airbnb? Do aging Americans who on a daily basis must decide between food or medicine find this discussion fair? And you know I could go on and on...

I realize that modernizing our infrastructure or fixing our education system are very hard problems, addressing poverty and restoring faith in the system will be even harder. And yes, bringing prosperity and hope to all seems almost impossible; but these aren't reasons not to try.

My apologies for the rant; but I think many of the discussions around immigration fail to recognize that America is much more than the wealthy coasts. There is real suffering out there and we should be sympathetic to that and realize that despite our real or perceived cultural differences with the millions of disenfranchised Americans; this country is theirs too!