Stories that Hacker News removes from the front page • Hacker News Board

Re: Stories that Hacker News removes from the front page

#291

Post by danmaz74 » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 8:41 PM UTC

mlmlmasd wrote: post #253

dang wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, and I wrote that in haste, so I've taken out "It should really be lower than that because the article is completely wrong" and replaced it with "It should probably be lower". Edit: I took a look at your list and don't see any pattern in those stories. Some belong on HN and indeed got a lot of time on the front page. Others clearly don't belong on HN. In a few cases moderators intervened to penalize the…

> There's simply too much data that isn't public. Make it public?

That makes gaming the system too easy.

Re: Stories that Hacker News removes from the front page

#292

Post by peterwwillis » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 8:43 PM UTC

scribu wrote: post #284

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no way around the need for moderator intervention on a site like HN—the clue is in the word 'moderator' itself: left to its own devices the system runs to extremes and it needs a negative feedback loop to dampen it. Uh... not really? Left to its own devices, the system will include both extremes and non-extremes. In order to cut extremes out you have to sample what the extremes are, detect them and then min…

> The detection comes by letting users tag stories by content and emotional weight. So what's to stop malicious users from tagging a post they don't like in such a way that the system sees it as controversial?

Assuming they have basic protections to stop malicious users massively-downvoting stories they don't like? The number of [real] users rating the story improves the balance, and you can use the same system they do now to prevent voting by brand-new users, things like that.

Re: Stories that Hacker News removes from the front page

#293

Post by sillysaurus3 » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 8:43 PM UTC

Jun8 wrote: post #273

Mz wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're all in favor of mods using their powers in order to further the site's stated goals, but we're also very wary of mods using their powers in order to further their own personal agendas. HN is quite well moderated, IMO (and I have been a moderator, and I spend a LOT of my time rolling my eyes at how most mods are doing it wrong, damnit ). Your comment is a kind of comment I see a lot on HN that sticks in my craw.…

Your blog post mainly consists of the statement: "Get a clue, people. Hacker News is an awesome discussion forum because it serves a business purpose. Please stop acting like there is something bizarre or ethically questionable about the mods making sure that this free service actually serves the business that pays all the bills for it. Geez" I don't agree with the the assertion that HN mainly "serves a business purp…

I don't agree with the the assertion that HN mainly "serves a business purpose", perhaps in its early days its main purpose was to funnel prospective people into YC (second step from pg's essays, I stumbled on HN this way back in the day).

If HN serves no business purpose, why does it employ full-time paid moderators?

Re: Stories that Hacker News removes from the front page

#294

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 8:49 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #290

Mz wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wary of them furthering their personal agenda. I quoted that. There seems to be this assumption that good only occurs when some Christ-like martyr falls on their sword for the benefit of other people. The entire world seems to think that the only good men are dead men who died as martyrs to a cause and if someone is getting something out of the deal, they are evil predators. I loathe this idea with every fibe…

The best way to optimize HN's value to YC is simply by having it be as interesting as possible. Curiosity is the reason the community comes here, and the community coming here is why HN is valuable, so to do it any other way would trade a global optimum for a local one—basically trading the goose that lays golden eggs for some eggs. We're in an unusually fortunate position this way. If HN were a startup constantly ne…

[deleted]

Re: Stories that Hacker News removes from the front page

#295

Post by kordless » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

tokenizerrr wrote: post #227

kordless wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want to illustrate the point that we intervene less, not more, when judgments about ourselves are involved. Given "ourselves" is all of us here, a way to illustrate that in a trustworthy way would be to expose the meta data around the story. Which articles were flagged and removed, who flagged, how much it mattered, etc. If not in real time, due to possible exploitation for ranking tweaks, then perhaps in an acce…

As a regular user, I have no interest in being witch hunted because I flagged a story. Votes and flags should be anonymous as far as other users are concerned.

This is highly irrational and speculative in nature. If an entity flags all articles by another entity or group, they should be held accountable for their actions, which could be shown to be biased. Further, a "witch hunt" would be driven by irrational decision making processes in the "hunter" aggregate, which is the point of exposing the meta data in the first place. Stopping recursive irrational thinking is the goal here.

Re: Stories that Hacker News removes from the front page

#296

Post by timthelion » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:10 PM UTC

timthelion wrote: post #63

I've had one post removed from the top spot on the front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5576041 I origionally posted with the title "For a moment, I thought bing was down" or something (I don't remember the origional title). The title was later changed to: Title: "Bing doesn't support SSL" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5576041 Later, the story was was removed entirely after I wrote the following co…

It seems like Hacker News doesn't like hackers, given the downvotes.

Re: Stories that Hacker News removes from the front page

#297

Post by throwaway743824 » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:25 PM UTC

tokenizerrr wrote: post #227

kordless wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want to illustrate the point that we intervene less, not more, when judgments about ourselves are involved. Given "ourselves" is all of us here, a way to illustrate that in a trustworthy way would be to expose the meta data around the story. Which articles were flagged and removed, who flagged, how much it mattered, etc. If not in real time, due to possible exploitation for ranking tweaks, then perhaps in an acce…

As a regular user, I have no interest in being witch hunted because I flagged a story. Votes and flags should be anonymous as far as other users are concerned.

It has to cost something to hide good content if you expect people to take the time to produce or submit quality content and engage with the community. Otherwise you'll end with the things no one cared much about.

Re: Stories that Hacker News removes from the front page

#298

Post by rimliu » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:29 PM UTC

nkurz wrote: post #243

rimliu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got my account (with 9+k point) banned. Which is, of course, annoying, but the most annoying thing was the comment left by moderator "we banned". How about "I banned"? Faceless corporate "we" does not look well. There was also a lie about warning which never happened, but hey, "not lying" is not in the guidelines, so… And while some of my comments might be harsh I sometimes wonder if overzealous moderation leads…

There was also a lie about warning which never happened, but hey, "not lying" is not in the guidelines, so… I think you've unfairly jumped from the evidence you see (I don't recall receiving any warning) to an accusation that Dan was lying. Since lying about this doesn't seem to be to Dan's benefit (why risk adding false information?) it seems more likely that Dan may have confused you with another user, or that you…

First, I don't remember mentioning that the account you are pointing to was mine. And while it is true in this case this kind of exposing does not sit well with me at all.

Second, it is a bit of a stretch to call Dan's (I still have no idea who 'dang' is, there is no name or personal address on his profile, but based on your doxing skills I will believe you) comment a warning. You can see that in other cases he's a bit more explicit ("stop doing that or we will ban you"). Also, I may be wrong, but if you read his comments a bit of different treatment is applied, I guess this is up to personal likes and dislikes.

As for offensive comments… well I am firmly in a camp of thinking that offense is taken, not given. Sure, one can be excessively rude, but I do not think this applies here. Calling opinion you consider bullshit is worth banning? Well, sad day indeed, then. More so because you can find plenty of stronger expression here which are posted without repercussions—likely because mods agree with them?

Cultural differences? Close enough I guess. I am still not sure if shaping this place into a Stepford where everyone is all fake smiles and nods in agreement is a best way, but it is not up to me to decide.

I am glad that at leas on topic of "we" we are in some agreement. As I've mentioned previously there may very well be solid reasons for this kind of anonymity, but it still feels very inhuman.

Re: Stories that Hacker News removes from the front page

#299

Post by detaro » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

reitanqild wrote: post #240

burger_moon wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Given "ourselves" is all of us here, a way to illustrate that in a trustworthy way would be to expose the meta data around the story. Which articles were flagged and removed, who flagged, how much it mattered, etc. Publicly pointing out who flagged a story seems like a bad idea. I think the data should always be anonymized. I just think it will lead down a bad path to ostracize people for specific votes or flags. I…

Publicly pointing out who flagged a story seems like a bad idea. Possibly better idea: Moderators could take a look at unfairly flagged stories and silently adjust flag weights for flag-abusing users. This is of course based on my unscientific thought that the majority of interesting (IMO) stories flagged of the frobt page are removed by competitors (political or business-wise) rather than moderators.

Unless I'm completely mistaken, the mods already do that (at least they've said "we'll take flagging privileges away from users that abuse them")

Re: Stories that Hacker News removes from the front page

#300

Post by walterbell » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:39 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #279

walterbell wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moderators would not need to police it, users would use the page to rescue incorrectly flagged posts. In any case, someone other than HN (e.g. Algolia) could construct a page/queue of flagged posts for review. It would be used by a subset of the audience for the "new" page. No permission needed from HN moderators. Users already have the power to vouch for stories, they only need a timely way to review.

I think the rate of objectively incorrectly flagged posts is very low. The author's previous post is an example. Flagging meta posts is not objectively incorrect. Flagging posts that suggest nefarious motives by the moderators is not objectively incorrect. Flagging posts that are technically mediocre (i.e. not reflecting knowledge of HN's moderators or the long published general ranking algorithm) is not objectively…

In the weighting function, wouldn't vouching invert the changes that were previously effected by flagging, which in fact took place on an incremental basis? Or are you saying that vouching is not needed?