Earlier quoted context omitted.
The travel ban is 100% about stopping legal immigration.
Visa is different from Immigration, technically speaking.
It banned people with green cards. That is a ban on people who already immigrated legally.
Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups
431–440 of 701 posts
Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups
#432Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Claims to the contrary the map is not the territory and a country is not a house I think you miss a "despite" or "notwithstanding" somewhere there. In any case, even though a country is indeed not a house in some ways (no ceiling for one), it is quite like a house in others -- a set of people live there, some where born there, others came later, but in any case, it's their house, they (and their parents and grandpa…
> I think you miss a "despite" or "notwithstanding" somewhere there. No, I'm perfectly ok with what I wrote. What I find interesting is that many people are perfectly ok with exploiting a poorer neighbor, but they definitely should stay on their side of the dotted line. All this hoopla about illegal immigration, walls and repatriating jobs to the other side of that dotted line will have the exact opposite effect. Ill…
>What I find interesting is that many people are perfectly ok with exploiting a poorer neighbor, but they definitely should stay on their side of the dotted line.
How is having trade with a poorer neighbor country "exploitation"? Or when manufacturing plants move to the poorer nation? How is that exploitation? It's not good for the higher-paid workers who now are unemployed in the richer country, but it's good for the workers in the poor country who now have jobs which they apparently want because those plants do get staffed quickly.
As for your equilibrium/osmosis analogy, what if that substance differs highly in concentration because there's fundamental differences between the two countries, and one of them is severely broken politically (the other one is too, just not as badly and not in the same way)? Until the fundamental problem in the poorer country is addressed, I don't see how you're going to ever achieve equilibrium unless it's to the severe disadvantage of the richer country (i.e., dragging them down). And the responsibility for fixing that is not with the richer country; doing that is generally called "imperialism" and not viewed positively these days.
Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups
#433Earlier quoted context omitted.
It wouldn't be hard to have an immigration system which is biased toward useful vs. not useful. The question is: where do you want to have the cutoff? I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), combined with a transparent and straightforward points-based system for mainly immigrant visas. I'd eliminate the inherent racism in the current system (penalizing India and China vs. Equatorial Gui…
"building the wall" is racism.... regardless, the problem is if you are perceived as not wanting immigrants, the most skilled ones will go elsewhere, because they can.
> "building the wall" is racism....
It has come to symbolise it, in a sense of "no more Mexicans." But op specifically meant it literally, as in: be strict about visa enforcements. If you have a wall, but a very liberal immigration policy, that's not racist.
Again: you're right in other situations, but in this specific case, he was playing with the words.
Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups
#434Earlier quoted context omitted.
First they came for the "Illegals"... Rhetoric aside, as you pointed out, this is only the beginning. Authoritarians always need a scrapegoat to blame for "failed policies". Once one group is eliminated, on to another.
> Authoritarians Why do you think they are authoritarians. I don't get this. The right in the US is about freedom. The left is the part of authoritarianism. The progressive left especially has incredibly tight control of freedom of speech. Everything they don't like is called hate speech, all discussions are shut down, and PC terminology means that it doesn't matter what you say anymore, if you accidentally choose th…
> The right in the US is about freedom.
Except when it comes to a woman's right to choose, the freedom to assemble and protest, freedom from religion, freedom of the press, freedom of movement, freedom to use the bathroom associated with your gender, freedom to use drugs recreationally, or any other area of personal freedoms you'd care to name wherein - to be really, really generous - the right doesn't perform any better than the left.
Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups
#435Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm concerned about potentially blocking US persons from exiting with a wall, but without legal changes it wouldn't be a problem. Even with legal changes, you'd need to restrict a LOT of technology on the US side to keep people from forcibly exiting, and I'd feel morally OK with using force to escape a country.
> I'd feel morally OK with using force to escape a country. Illegal immigration is fine with you if it is to escape a country, but not if it is to enter a country? Do realize that by using force to escape one country you'd immediately be illegally emigrating into another. A lot of your Southern neighbors feel just like you. They use force to escape their economic situation, a prison whose walls are roughly as effecti…
That's a really strange and horrible viewpoint you have.
In my world, it's always OK for someone for someone to enter someone else's land/property if they've been given permission. If's not OK to do so if they haven't. However, holding people prisoner is always morally wrong. That's pretty much the definition of slavery.
IMO, it's always OK for people to forcibly leave someone who's enslaving them; the complication is finding someone who will take them in. Assuming they've found such a place, what possible defense can you have for people who want to imprison them?
>Do realize that by using force to escape one country you'd immediately be illegally emigrating into another.
This is wrong. You're assuming the country they're immigrating into hasn't given them permission. This is a baseless assumption.
Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups
#436Earlier quoted context omitted.
It wouldn't be hard to have an immigration system which is biased toward useful vs. not useful. The question is: where do you want to have the cutoff? I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), combined with a transparent and straightforward points-based system for mainly immigrant visas. I'd eliminate the inherent racism in the current system (penalizing India and China vs. Equatorial Gui…
> I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), Having lived on the east side of Berlin (post Wall!) I cannot forget that that wall was supposedly built to keep people out but of course it kept people in . I am Australian, and I have to admit the points based system does work there...but. I have lived longest in the USA where the chaos has been beneficial for the country, and thus for me. Aus…
Well, I am inclined to like creative destruction and open borders too. But Australia and the US are democracies -- they are ruled by the people, most of whom seem to like a bit more orderliness.
Now if the democratic process is producing something like the White Australia Policy[1] then we have cause to cry out our moral censure from the rooftops. But whatever your view on the current points system, that's just a policy debate, not a great moral issue.
Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups
#437Earlier quoted context omitted.
More importantly, how can you not think that? Logically a Canadian is going to be culturally a better fit, financially better off, and more educated and skilled. It's got nothing to do with race or nationality, just a statement about the average Mexican vs the average Canadian. Don't throw logic out the window in service to liberal ideals.
The US already as plenty of people that "culturally fit better", are more educated, are skilled, etc. We don't have enough people that picks Strawberry crops in California or does home construction in suburbs. We literally don't have those people willing to do those jobs, which can cause runaway inflation. Immigration is not about adding more of the same. It's about filling holes in our economy and labor force. How m…
> How many Canadians do you think are going to go picking Strawberries in California?
Standing here, looking out the window at the cold snow blowing, I can say that I would very much prefer to be picking strawberries in California at the moment.
Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups
#438Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps nations will be incentivized to fix the underlying causes of their brain drain if they perceive it as a big problem.
Aren't the "brains" the ones most suited to fix those problems in the first place?
No, not if they're not good at national politics, or don't have the right connections to be effective there.
Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups
#439Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Has anyone actually tried paying $25 per hour plus benefits for strawberry picking? Yes. Actually here's one article about farmers offering $25/hr picking strawberries: http://komonews.com/news/local/local-berry-farmers-lament-la... Their crops are getting ruined because they can't get workers. I can't believe people don't understand how comfortable the average millennial is in this life, and how completely unneces…
Then pay them 50$ an hour. I know tons of people who'd take that job. Raise it to 100$ an hour and I'll volunteer to do it myself. If prices go up, then prices go up. Supply and demand.
Let's use logic here. What happens to the price of strawberries if the price of labor goes up 5-10x?
Which people are most affected by the change in price?
Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups
#440Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Than why so many leaked memos show that Bannon and Miller want to reduce family Visas for those already legally here? From http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/1/14773298/mer... : "Reforming the immigration system to be more “merit-based” is predicated on the idea that some of these slots are going to the wrong immigrants — immigrants who don’t have as much to give the US as the US has to give them. Propon…
Get your facts outta here. Can't you see people are trying to force a perceived threat based on their feelings here?
This is the comment that takes the middle ground and explains to both of you that nothing is black and white and there are bad and good things about Trump's immigration agenda. His plans could actually be philanthropically motivated, but they are undeniably being prematurely spun into action without reasonable consultation from an array of experts and this is the source of most of its flaws. These flaws may or may not be too big to ignore, but without a panel of unbiased experts assigned to investigate the matter we are making an immature decision to support his impulsive strategy of setting policy.