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Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

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Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#381

Post by Oxitendwe »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #32

One of the basic premises of anti-immigrant policies is that you can somehow influence the ratio of "useful" vs "not-useful" immigrants. Apart from the idea of sorting people into useful and useless being inhumane, it also seems to be counterproductive. It looks like every kind of screening of immigrants will deter the more desirable ones, as far as that determination is possible on their arrival at all.

>Apart from the idea of sorting people into useful and useless being inhumane

How do you think it would affect a country to suddenly have a very large amount of low-skill immigrants? How would the native citizens, the people by which their government is held accountable and to whose interests their government's purpose is to advance, be affected? The answer is probably that they would be very adversely effected, in which case however "inhumane" it is to sort people like this, it is also inhumane to do wrong by the native citizens who built the country that those immigrants would be living in. Immigration is not a human right, nobody has a right to immigrate anywhere and no country has an obligation to accept any particular person or group of people as immigrants.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#382

Post by headsupftw »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #45
Cuuugi wrote: post #10

Whenever I see "Immigration" in the title, i think anti-Trump and get sad. No one is trying to stop legal immigration. Tech companies are mad because they are cracking down on H1-B Visa abuse. This is not a bad thing.

> No one is trying to stop legal immigration. You know, except for all of the legal visas and green cards for Iranian citizens and citizens of the other 5/6 countries.

I think you are confusing immigration with entering a foreign country.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#383

Post by rdl »

jacquesm wrote: post #374
rdl wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm concerned about potentially blocking US persons from exiting with a wall, but without legal changes it wouldn't be a problem. Even with legal changes, you'd need to restrict a LOT of technology on the US side to keep people from forcibly exiting, and I'd feel morally OK with using force to escape a country.

> I'd feel morally OK with using force to escape a country. Illegal immigration is fine with you if it is to escape a country, but not if it is to enter a country? Do realize that by using force to escape one country you'd immediately be illegally emigrating into another. A lot of your Southern neighbors feel just like you. They use force to escape their economic situation, a prison whose walls are roughly as effecti…

Yes: Illegal emigration is always fine with me. Just not illegal immigration.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#384

Post by gumby »

rdl wrote: post #98
bayesian_horse wrote: post #32

One of the basic premises of anti-immigrant policies is that you can somehow influence the ratio of "useful" vs "not-useful" immigrants. Apart from the idea of sorting people into useful and useless being inhumane, it also seems to be counterproductive. It looks like every kind of screening of immigrants will deter the more desirable ones, as far as that determination is possible on their arrival at all.

It wouldn't be hard to have an immigration system which is biased toward useful vs. not useful. The question is: where do you want to have the cutoff? I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), combined with a transparent and straightforward points-based system for mainly immigrant visas. I'd eliminate the inherent racism in the current system (penalizing India and China vs. Equatorial Gui…

> I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"),

Having lived on the east side of Berlin (post Wall!) I cannot forget that that wall was supposedly built to keep people out but of course it kept people in.

I am Australian, and I have to admit the points based system does work there...but. I have lived longest in the USA where the chaos has been beneficial for the country, and thus for me. Australia doesn't have a culture of "creative destruction" and its system has kept that from arriving/emerging.

If the US does choose to shut the door and I'll jump through it before it slams...and continue starting businesses (and creating jobs) elsewhere.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#385

Post by tristor »

coldpie wrote: post #132
GrinningFool wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by the Republican party. By some members of it, anyway. The Republican party is no more a united front than the Democrat party at the moment.

Gosh, thanks for the correction. We wouldn't want to hurt the feelings of the racists' close allies and supporters, now, would we? Supporting Republicans means supporting racism. This was made extremely clear during the 2016 election, and I don't see any Republicans scrambling to prevent the White House's blatantly racist policies since then. There are no more excuses, you are either a supporter of hate and bigotry o…

> Supporting Republicans means supporting racism.

This is patently untrue and statements like these are not helpful to the overall political situation that you're upset about. Demonizing your opposition in your rhetoric is divisive and causes reasonable people to shy away. One of the reasons the Democrats lost the elections almost across the board in 2016 was because of their insistence on divisive rhetoric. To win elections you need the reasonable middle that are registered to neither party, this voting bloc overwhelmingly voted Republican in 2016.

The conservative ideology is not racist. In fact, strong conservativism was a primary hallmark of support for things like the civil rights movement. Unfortunately the Republican Party is more authoritarian and corporatist than conservative these days. Regardless, many people are registered as Republicans who abhor racism and bigotry.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#386

Post by hueving »

jacquesm wrote: post #374
rdl wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm concerned about potentially blocking US persons from exiting with a wall, but without legal changes it wouldn't be a problem. Even with legal changes, you'd need to restrict a LOT of technology on the US side to keep people from forcibly exiting, and I'd feel morally OK with using force to escape a country.

> I'd feel morally OK with using force to escape a country. Illegal immigration is fine with you if it is to escape a country, but not if it is to enter a country? Do realize that by using force to escape one country you'd immediately be illegally emigrating into another. A lot of your Southern neighbors feel just like you. They use force to escape their economic situation, a prison whose walls are roughly as effecti…

>Do realize that by using force to escape one country you'd immediately be illegally emigrating into another.

Sure, that's fine as long as you aren't illegally immigrating into another.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#387

Post by atomi »

kolbe wrote: post #364
atomi wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to be a lawful permanent resident to qualify for any federal public benefits.

Tell that to the emergency care centers that aren't allowed to turn away anyone or else they will not receive medicare reimbursements.

That is literally the least we can do. Or would you rather we deny emergency medical treatment and let people just die? They do pay sales taxes, rent payments (they have to live somewhere) that go towards property taxes and the majority also pay into social security which they will never qualify for.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/illegal-immigrant...

And by the way, many have kids that are Americans by birthright. So, I'm not sure what the benefit is to scapegoating the undocumented immigrant labor class. Maybe you can answer that.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#389

Post by coldtea »

jacquesm wrote: post #330
coldtea wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's just not the way I would have interpreted the meaning of a border wall. Well, consider a country as a people's collective house. In this, a border, if not analogous to the walls, is at least analogous to the fence around the house and/or the lock on the door.

Claims to the contrary the map is not the territory and a country is not a house. Finally, a wall around a country is definitely not the same as a wall or fence around your house. Note that most dictatorships use walls around their 'houses' to keep the population in, not to keep others out. Note that countries that are bordering other countries with great wealth disparity are using walls to keep the wealth concentrat…

>Claims to the contrary the map is not the territory and a country is not a house

I think you miss a "despite" or "notwithstanding" somewhere there.

In any case, even though a country is indeed not a house in some ways (no ceiling for one), it is quite like a house in others -- a set of people live there, some where born there, others came later, but in any case, it's their house, they (and their parents and grandparents) maintained it over the years, and its their decision who comes in and how it's run.

>Note that most dictatorships use walls around their 'houses' to keep the population in, not to keep others out.

That's not generally applicable, except when the dictatorship can't guarantee enough prosperity or is especially violent towards some groups. It's safety and/or food primarily. Otherwise, most people have little intention of living merely for political freedom.

But even if so, it's orthogonal to our subject. Dictatorships might do that (keep their population in), but we're talking about the inverse (keep non-citizens out -- which, by some logic, would be what democracies do).

>Those fences and walls are there for practical reasons and to delineate responsibility and right-of-way, not to specifically make it harder for your neighbor to share in the collective wealth of the neighborhood.

Borders are there for very practical purposes too. To define the area that a nation state controls, taxes, enforces laws, etc, and to keep non citizens of that state, outside of it unless asked to come in.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#390

Post by akhilcacharya »

artursapek wrote: post #259
akhilcacharya wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it matter?

Because most of the anger at Trump and his admin has been around their plan for deportation of criminal illegal aliens

And yet people all across the country protested at airports a few weeks ago...
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