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Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

theintercept.com

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Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#41

Post by UnpossibleJim »

exabrial wrote: post #2

My opinion on hn was unpopular when I spoke out against Apple during the San Bernardino affair, because the FBI seemed to have the proper DOJ signoff and I think the motivation was obvious. However this is unacceptable. We are a society of laws, and one of them is due process. Spying likely started during the Bush years, and Obama somehow escaped scrutiny for continuing the program (even with Snowden leaks). Hopefull…

Not that I endorse this reality, but we have been, for quite a long time, a society that has one set of laws for certain segments of society and another set for disparate segments of society.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#42

Post by grandalf »

andy_ppp wrote: post #14
1001101 wrote: post #7

It's interesting that the article mentions then Sen. Obama's change of heart re: the FISA Amendments Act - saying he would filibuster it and then voting for it. I wonder what led to his change of heart. I haven't heard that explained.

Probably that he was running for president and wanted to appear on the side of the security services? Then when in office it clearly must be a useful tool to start build profiles of everyone and be able to mine their activities.

Exactly. I think it also underscores Obama's unprincipled, opportunistic nature. This is not a criticism of Obama, I think it applies to all presidents, and likely most elected officials worldwide.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#43

Post by grandalf »

While this article offers the clearest presentation of the issue I've seen to date, I think the key point (which the article points out halfway in) is that the truth of Trump's claim that he was wiretapped does not depend on the presence or absence of a FISA warrant.

The system is designed to be used without warrant, so those harping on the detail of whether or not a warrant existed that had Trump in scope are not focused on the core issue.

It would be nice if all surveillance could be traced back to FISA warrants, but Snowden's revelations make it clear this is absolutely not the case.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#44

Post by VA3FXP »

joshontheweb wrote: post #15
mgamache wrote: post #5

The problem with the press coverage of this topic is a lack of personalization. What does the government know about me and why is that important? I think most US citizens would be shocked to learn that most of our personal information is accessible without a warrant. (phone records / bank account / email / web history / phone location data / Car location / Purchase history / Facebook etc....). Also, how much the gove…

Unfortunately I have found that most people aren't shocked when I explain this to them. Most commonly they just say That their life is boring and they've got nothing to hide. Additionally they think that it may be worth the invasion if we can catch the 'bad guys'. I'm not sure what would need to happen to change this sentiment on a large enough scale to get people motivated into political action.

    The fight against apathy is unforgiving, relentless, and it only works in small doses.  As long as the masses have their opiate of choice nothing will ever change.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#45

Post by k-mcgrady »

youdontknowtho wrote: post #37

It's a mistake to empower and legitimize the right. Rand Paul is an extremist on issues of life and limb. Just because he's "good" on this issue doesn't change that. In fact, it makes it more likely that he will be afforded the position of a moderate because he went against his party on this issue, when he is just as extreme as anyone in his party on any others. It is something that Democrats will need to understand…

>> You have to deny them victories, even on issues that you support. It sucks but the right has outsized influence over the country because of party discipline like I've just described.

This attitude is the reason politics is fucked. Vote based on issues, not party bullshit. If a party is good on one issue you support and bad on every other issue obviously they won't get your support but voting based on a party and not issues is idiotic.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#46

Post by jacquesm »

joshontheweb wrote: post #15
mgamache wrote: post #5

The problem with the press coverage of this topic is a lack of personalization. What does the government know about me and why is that important? I think most US citizens would be shocked to learn that most of our personal information is accessible without a warrant. (phone records / bank account / email / web history / phone location data / Car location / Purchase history / Facebook etc....). Also, how much the gove…

Unfortunately I have found that most people aren't shocked when I explain this to them. Most commonly they just say That their life is boring and they've got nothing to hide. Additionally they think that it may be worth the invasion if we can catch the 'bad guys'. I'm not sure what would need to happen to change this sentiment on a large enough scale to get people motivated into political action.

> I'm not sure what would need to happen to change this sentiment on a large enough scale to get people motivated into political action.

A couple of razzias where they or their loved ones were taken to gas chambers should do the job.

But we have such short memories.

In just about every Dutch town, usually near the railway station there is a monument documenting just that and it still does not seem to make much of a difference.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#47

Post by Bartweiss »

youdontknowtho wrote: post #37

It's a mistake to empower and legitimize the right. Rand Paul is an extremist on issues of life and limb. Just because he's "good" on this issue doesn't change that. In fact, it makes it more likely that he will be afforded the position of a moderate because he went against his party on this issue, when he is just as extreme as anyone in his party on any others. It is something that Democrats will need to understand…

> Just because he's "good" on this issue doesn't change that... You have to deny them victories, even on issues that you support

I understand this argument when it's something like a good stance on education, with bad stances on abortion and the environment. There are lots of people on the left who would share that education stance, and they should be championed instead.

But that's really, really not the case on surveillance. We don't have the luxury of siding with the left and denying the right (or vice-versa). Dianne Feinstein is the Congressional Democrat's standard-bearer on surveillance. We don't want to empower the right, great. But this is a hugely important issue where the left is terrible. So is most of the right - only a handful of figures on each side (especially Wyden, Udall, and Paul) doing anything good.

So what the heck does party discipline look like? Surrendering the entire issue because the Democrats are so profoundly wrong?

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#48

Post by rbg246 »

willstrafach wrote: post #18
Darthy wrote: post #8

Of course the other 7.2 billion people in the world are also routinely monitored, but since this is an action on foreign territory, these 7.2 billion people have no recourse against this practice.

I hear this brought up a lot but do not see how it would be an issue. This is part of the job of an intelligence agency. Something often ignored: The intelligence agencies of other countries are likely to be doing the same thing. It has already been shown that BND and GCHQ engage in similar behavior with regards to upstream and satellite signals interception, but it seems foolish to assume that other countries are no…

No i don't think it is the job of an intelligence agency to spy on the rest of the world's citizens and i think its a terrible idea to normalise this behaviour as such or to somehow make it sound ethical.

The everyone else is doing it defence does not change the unethical nature of the action.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#49

Post by Bartweiss »

guelo wrote: post #40
youdontknowtho wrote: post #37

It's a mistake to empower and legitimize the right. Rand Paul is an extremist on issues of life and limb. Just because he's "good" on this issue doesn't change that. In fact, it makes it more likely that he will be afforded the position of a moderate because he went against his party on this issue, when he is just as extreme as anyone in his party on any others. It is something that Democrats will need to understand…

This is not a Democrat/Republican issue. Obama and Bush both expanded these programs with their party's blessing. There are pockets of civil liberty defenders in both parties.

It should have become pretty clear that this wasn't partisan when an outgoing Obama helped ramp up surveillance in full knowledge of who was next. Seeing people treat this as a D/R fight when Udall and Feinstein are viciously opposed to one another is bizarre to me.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#50

Post by toddmorey »

strictnein wrote: post #27
mgamache wrote: post #5

The problem with the press coverage of this topic is a lack of personalization. What does the government know about me and why is that important? I think most US citizens would be shocked to learn that most of our personal information is accessible without a warrant. (phone records / bank account / email / web history / phone location data / Car location / Purchase history / Facebook etc....). Also, how much the gove…

All that is available without a warrant? Strange then that the government gets search warrants for lots of that stuff. edit: Maybe my sarcasm/snark wasn't clear: almost the entirety of the parent comment's list of stuff available to the government without a warrant actually requires a warrant.

Would be interesting to get a comprehensive list of what is and isn't available without a warrant from a judge. For example...

"Police can get phone records without a warrant thanks to a 1979 Supreme Court case, Smith v. Maryland, which found that the Constitution's Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable search and seizure doesn't apply to a list of phone numbers. The Electronic Communications Privacy Act (ECPA) — a 1986 law that underpins much of how the government can get digital data — requires providers to allow access to real-time data with a court order and historical data with a subpoena."

https://www.propublica.org/special/no-warrant-no-problem-how...

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