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Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov

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Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#461

Post by Can_Not »

nolepointer wrote: post #189
ThomPete wrote: post #48

Here is the problem. How do you deal with illegal immigrants? At least in the current system there are ways for them to get treated, but in a single payer system? Single-payer works great in countries were everyone have a ssn. Not sure its feasible in the US as much as i think it would be great.

>How do you deal with illegal immigrants? You deport them? Doesn't seem like a big problem.

Deport them or not, but after treating them, because healthcare is a basic human right. Definitely a non-problem compared to a healthcare system that is incenticized to profit from the sick rather than prevent long-term health issues and keep the population healthy as a whole.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#462

Post by mcbruiser1 »

bsder wrote: post #391
mcbruiser wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure as shit happy to pay more in taxes for a universal single single-payer. I Great, you can opt in to that, but don't force everyone else who doesn't agree with you to subsidize everyone else's poor decisions

Breaking an ankle is not a "decision". Tuberculosis is not a "decision". Cancer is not a "decision". Alzheimer's is not a "decision". "Getting old" is not a "decision".

You're thinking about this backwards. Health is a personal responsibility. The things you cite are not decisions, naturally, but many things that make people sick are choices (smoking, poor diet, not exercising, etc) and the choice to not pursue employment that provides adequate health insurance is.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#463

Post by mcbruiser1 »

Frondo wrote: post #312
mcbruiser wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure as shit happy to pay more in taxes for a universal single single-payer. I Great, you can opt in to that, but don't force everyone else who doesn't agree with you to subsidize everyone else's poor decisions

Ok, well, as a cyclist who doesn't own a car, and as a vegetarian who doesn't eat meat, and as a childless infertile dude, I'm sure tired of subsidizing you cow-eating motorist parents. Oh, wait, that's what society is--we all pay for communal stuff because we're all ultimately in this together.

> Oh, wait, that's what society is-

No, that's what socialism and communism are.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#464

Post by drdeadringer »

tylersmith wrote: post #338
darkstar999 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: what do you propose we do with the people dying in the street?

Make them move out of the streets and into the country.

That's the entire plan? Drop them off in the forest and drive off? There's a bit more to homelessness and surviving in the country.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#465

Post by drdeadringer »

tylersmith wrote: post #413
carterehsmith wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok so I am curious about the "collectivism" story. I mean, we as species have been talking care of our elderly and injured for like what, 50,000 years or 100,000 years or whatever? Seems to be working well. And, if we all chip in, we can have nice things. Roads, water, electricity, museums, libraries, courts, police, etc. Is that bad?

If it's voluntary absolutely not. But when people fetishize collectivism the natural result is forced collectivism, which is just a rationalization of theft, robbery, and usually murder. That is bad.

Now tell us what you think of taxes or public education.

My thoughts: I benefit from your children being educated on my dime. You and I benefit from infrastructure we both use maintained on our dime. It's not theft, robbery, murder, or bad or fetishize collectivism.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#466

Post by alexqgb »

Lazare wrote: post #375
alexqgb wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general this true, but California is unique among American states in that its got an economy and a population bigger than most other nations in the OECD. That is to say, we've reached a scale where we absolutely can start thinking and acting like a nation state. That doesn't mean that smaller, poorer, and weaker states can simply copy what we do directly, one-by-one. But it does mean they can band together to see…

I live in New Zealand, population 4 million. If scale alone was critical, then Aetna (which covers about 23 million people in the US) would be squeezing really good pricing deals out of their suppliers, while NZ would be seeing really high costs. Nothing could be further from the truth. (This is true, incidentally, because in large part NZ's low costs come from just buying less stuff. Fewer fancy drugs, fewer fancy m…

I'm sorry, but you've completely missed the point of a single-payer system. You don't set one up to get better deals out of insurance companies. Under single payer you put for-profit insurance companies out of business.

Hospitals and pharmaceutical companies then negotiate directly with the state. And as far as what they can be expected to accept without going out of business themselves goes, we can get a pretty good idea from the expenditures of every other OECD country.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#467

Post by robotresearcher »

robotresearcher wrote: post #298
mindcrime wrote: post #175

so should the government force those people to spend their earned income on healthcare for others? Absolutely not. Pretty much any question that starts with "should the government force ..." can be answered "no". You earned your income, it's yours and it should be up to you how to spend it. Using force / aggression (aka the government forcing you to do something) is a violation of your most fundamental rights, and st…

> Using force / aggression (aka the government forcing you to do something) is a violation of your most fundamental rights, and strips you of your agency and dignity as a human being. This is completely wrong. You have no rights except those guaranteed you by your fellows in a collective agreement. 'Rights' are exactly those things that the collective threatens us against violating in others. Consider: if it's up to…

I just remembered that the mold was an accident. The bacteria were being grown in dishes. Science accuracy.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#468

Post by mullen »

ra1n85 wrote: post #415
mullen wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several states where health insurance sells across state lines. It does not lower the price of health insurance.

How can you say that? When an arbitrary law creates artificial markets and restricts the choices of consumers, you really think that prices aren't affected?

Because health insurance is not about scarcity or moving goods across state lines. Setting up insurance is much more complex than that and I think that is why people get caught up in thinking that allowing insurance to be sold across state lines will help.

When an insurance company sets up in another state, they have create a network of doctors, hospitals and medical providers. The doctor network does not just pop up over night.

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