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Scotland to seek second independence referendum

bbc.com

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Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#221

Post by kpil »

sambeau wrote: post #196
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. // This may be an indication of the problem. To my view your opener should be "I'm a child of British parents, born in Britain and grew…

I would have but that would have made things very confusing: I feel 100% British. My immediate family is scattered around the UK our forefathers were scattered throughout the British Isles—one half of the family was Irish. Even my English parents have Scottish blood somewhere down the line. Even worse for me, I'm an internationalist and I felt very proud to be part of the EU for many of the same reasons I felt proud…

It's perhaps part of the confusion, and a sign that the states - rather than nations - have become so important that the concepts have been muddled, but I think that what you refer to as a "civic nation" is actually typically called a "state."

"Ethnic countries" - if the states primarily contains one nation of people - ethnically (ie mainly culturally), is commonly referred to as a national state.

National states became a popular concept in the 19th century, possibly because the kings, emperors and other rulers were starting to loose power and had to build their states around some concept. Before that, the kings and the rulers did not give the nationality of their subjects much of a thought I suppose.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#222

Post by teh_klev »

aembleton wrote: post #202
JMCQ87 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My only concern for Scotland is that they wouldn't be able to gain (re-gain?) EU membership then would be left out on their own for many years." Why? How? Scotland would easily fulfill the requirements to join pretty much right away and the EU needs good news and would be able to sell that as something positive, so they have clear incentives to make it happen ASAP. Scotland also would be a net contributing country.

Because Madrid doesn't want to bolster the Catalonian independence movement. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/27/scottish-in...

Severin Carrell is just being wilfully ignorant, and continues to peddle this myth in the Guardian whenever he can.

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/03/11/la-gota-que-co...

"The argument upon which Spain bases it opposition to Catalan and Basque self-determination is a clause in the Spanish constitution which forbids them to have independence referendums. There is no such clause in the British constitution forbidding Scotland from holding an independence referendum. When Scottish independence come about, it will be legal, it will be constitutional, and it will be negotiated with and recognised by Westminster.

Spain doesn’t recognise the independence of Kosovo from Serbia because Kosovo declared independence unilaterally, an independence which isn’t recognised by Serbia and which Serbia claims is contrary to the Serbian constitution. But Spain does recognise the independence of Montenegro from its union with Serbia because Montenegrin independence was permitted by the constitution and is recognised by Serbia. Unionists only ever cite Kosovo, never Montenegro.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#223

Post by zigzigzag »

selectodude wrote: post #204
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like India's recent growth have edged them out, but I just want to point out that's why, not because the UK is falling. Its just India is, finally, catching up to the rest of the world. This is good news for India and doesn't take away from the UK. Also, remember we're talking about an economy of merely 65m people that chimes in at 6th. UK GDP growth fits in at almost 2% which is where the USA sits at as well a…

UK GDP growth is almost entirely due to financial services and legal sectors in London, who just received the official notification that London is no longer the banking center of Europe.

London is still the banking center of Europe. Trade cuts both ways too: the EU needs the companies and people based in London. Cutting themselves off from their own financial center won't be pain free.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#224

Post by rukittenme »

timthelion wrote: post #140
falsedan wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is SNP racist? Some people see the SNP's strong desire to separate from Westminster as anti-English.

Oh the poor English :( technically that would be sectarian and not racist, as both Scotts and English bellong to the same race.

Celts and Anglo-Saxons are not the same race.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#225

Post by Symbiote »

maze-le wrote: post #207
sambeau wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total collapse of the UK is looking quite possible. - Scotland is likely to go (despite what the polls say right now) - Northern Ireland is quite likely to join Ireland - God knows what Wales is going to do

Northern Ireland is a very tricky issue. Despite the majority in vote against Brexit, there is an almost 50/50 divide between pro-british unionists and pro-irish nationalists. As far as I understand it, the government in Belfast has been a close cooperation between both sides since 1998. If that cooperation breaks down no one knows what is about to happen, but many fear that the violence of the 'Troubles' might retur…

From friends and acquaintances in Northern Ireland, some of the unionists are wondering just why they're in favour of a maintaining a union, when the other side is either against them (anti-EU), or doesn't much care (the perception that people in Great Britain don't follow much news on NI).

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#226

Post by sctb »

a_name wrote: post #65

However, I think it's now almost certain that if Scotland does vote to become independent they will be forced to take the Euro as currency. Is Spain now willing to allow them into the EU or will they veto their membership application because of their issues with Catalonia? Still seems like racist SNP are still in denial

We detached this flagged subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13857513.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#228

Post by falsedan »

aembleton wrote: post #202
JMCQ87 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My only concern for Scotland is that they wouldn't be able to gain (re-gain?) EU membership then would be left out on their own for many years." Why? How? Scotland would easily fulfill the requirements to join pretty much right away and the EU needs good news and would be able to sell that as something positive, so they have clear incentives to make it happen ASAP. Scotland also would be a net contributing country.

Because Madrid doesn't want to bolster the Catalonian independence movement. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/27/scottish-in...

2013 puts that in the context of the 2014 Indyref, where the Spanish were against the possibility of independent Scotland being considered as a successor state of the UK + thus automatically gaining EU membership.

Nowadays the context is on independent Scotland applying to join as a non-EU member, which no one has made any objections to.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#229

Post by matthewmacleod »

cmdkeen wrote: post #148
matthewmacleod wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current thought within the SNP is moving towards building an economic case for independence which is not dependent on North Sea oil revenue. That reliance was seen as a weakness in the previous campaign, and there is awareness of that within the party.

Given that the cybernats have taken to denying GERS, despite those being the figures the last White Paper was based on - and the Common Weal proposed Scotland not having to pay pensions to balance the books, I wouldn't get your hopes up. The clue is the quiet dropping of demands for Full Fiscal Autonomy over the past few years. There isn't close enough savings to made from things like Trident to enable even a credibl…

'Cybernats' are not really representative of anything important, and I think it would be better to focus on the plans published going forward.

I'm an ardent supporter of independence, but I don't doubt for a second that it will be difficult to build a strong economic case – in no small part because of the level of uncertainty we are currently dealing with. But I'm quietly confident that the independence movement will have learned a lot from the previous campaign and will avoid making mistakes it perhaps made in 2014.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#230

Post by mezod »

ruairidhwm wrote: post #81
NachoDuck wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Primarily Spain I think? I couldn't find a good source saying they would block the membership outright but there's an article here which includes some details about which states are opposed the EU negotiating potential membership for Scotland as part of Brexit (I realise that's slightly different to Scotland joining as an independent nation). 'Brexit: Spain and France oppose Scotland EU talks' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/…

Spain is less of an argument now as Catalonia have always been a region of Spain whereas Scotland is its own nation which joined the UK through the Act of Union. It's a different legal precedent. Also, I imagine that Spain will do what they're encouraged to do by thE EC considering the budgetary reliance.

wait what? Catalonia has always been what? Nope.
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