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Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

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Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#51

Post by am_yc »

Kenya tried to introduce such a law last year, but the community quickly shot it down. some of the issues were

1. what makes a certified software engineer? - eg. will embedded, back-end guys, front-end guys, SREs, have similar certification processes, or will they differ, and if they differ, what happens when someone, wants to move?

2. who does the certification, the community or some bureaucratic board?

3. what guarantees that the certification process keeps pace with the ever changing landscape?

4. what guarantees that those with the authority to certify don't use it selfishly?

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#52

Post by Raed667 »

gommm wrote: post #38
Raed667 wrote: post #3

Here is the Tunisian approach: 1- Let private and public schools be. They can issue their engineering diploma as they like (to a certain extent). 2- Have a national committee that evaluates graduates and gives "national diploma of engineering" based on a number of criteria. 3- Watch the committee slowly become irrelevant as the private sector companies don't care about the national diploma and just wants qualified pe…

The system in France is similar in a way. There are private and public schools, if they are certified, they can issue an Engineering degree but there are non-certified schools who just issue their own diploma. Private sector companies do care about the actual Engineering degree so people who graduate from non-certified schools tend to have a lower starting salary.

In Tunisia in order for the school to be able to operate it needs to be certified by the state in the first place.

There is another organism that does the "equivalence" of diploma called "ordre des ingénieurs", I never bothered to do it.

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#53

Post by throwaway2016a »

The problem with software is that there are thousands of certifications and none of them have any authoritative weight. If you are a security engineer there are 4+ different certifications you can get and almost none of them prove you know your stuff, they are just excuses to charge you per year for "Continuing Eductation Credits"

But on the other topic. The PE, which is the engineering certification in the US has a software specialization already. And I don't plan to get it. Even though I meet one of the most difficult qualifications which is having a degree from a school where Computer Science is accredited as an engineering program. Same reason my wife who is a Process Engineer (an electrical and/or mechanical engineer that engineers processes and machines for mass production) doesn't plan on getting her's despite having a Master's degree in biomedical engineering. No employer is looking for it and it is absurdly expensive in both time and money.

I think this XKCD applies: https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#54

Post by kobeya »

elmigranto wrote: post #50
spacemanmatt wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They check references. A surgeon has to keep his/her hands wet or face hurdles getting back into any OR.

True, but still, it's not like you are going to say "here's my github, CS diploma and references from previous jobs" and hear "alright then, let's skip reversing those red-black trees on a whiteboard for 4 hours, welcome aboard". I understand why those are not enough, but it would be nice not to have to prove you are competent from ground up every time you want to change a job. Hence, certification, etc. But I have n…

Actually I've had jobs like that, and hired roles in that way. It works better than you think when those references are really there.

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#56

Post by mdpopescu »

spacemanmatt wrote: post #35

I wouldn't. Software development is not fundamental. It is a blended trade incorporating art/design/marketing with engineering. If it were something that could be nailed down like plumbing I might could see it, but currently software developers are a rather diverse group serving a diverse market. Edit: I would be curious to see, if more people are willing to indicate their years of field experience in this particular…

Heh. 33 since I started programming, 29 since I first got paid for it.

For the record, I am completely against any kind of certification in this field... which is actually already a dozen different fields, at the least. (I have no experience in Machine Learning or Wordpress plugins, both of which are actual jobs you can make money with.)

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#57

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

HeavenBanned wrote: post #8

As a Software Engineering student, I can't decipher whether the comments here are sarcastic or honest.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" --Upton Sinclair

A lot of people currently in the industry wouldn't qualify if Professional Engineer-style certification were instituted and even those that do would be held to a lot higher standard than they are now.

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#58

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

fsloth wrote: post #26

A professional certificate is not a quality grading tool, it's a pricing mechanism. Thus the demand for the certification needs to come from the selfish needs of the certified profession. First requirement is that there is an oversupply of qualified candidates. As the demands for software engineers shows no signs of abating I would claim attaining this first requirement would be quite hard. On the other hand, if supp…

>A professional certificate is not a quality grading tool, it's a pricing mechanism.

Is it? At one time, physicians, too, were not all that keen on the idea of licensing.

"David A. Johnson and Humayun J. Chaudhry's surprisingly engaging Medical Licensing and Discipline in America: A History of the Federation of State Medical Boards was published to commemorate the centennial celebration of the Federation of State Medical Boards (FSMB). It opens with the infamous John Brinkley, known for transplanting live goat testicles into men in order to 'cure' impotence, and segues neatly into demonstrating how vital licensure and discipline continue to be for the medical profession and the general public. The authors pepper the book with many other such examples, making the dry remote process of licensure absorbing and pertinent to the reader..."

Having seen (allegedly) senior software developers do architectural things equivalent to said ghastly transplant, I'm not so sure licensure for software engineers would be a bad thing anymore.

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#59

Post by fsloth »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #58
fsloth wrote: post #26

A professional certificate is not a quality grading tool, it's a pricing mechanism. Thus the demand for the certification needs to come from the selfish needs of the certified profession. First requirement is that there is an oversupply of qualified candidates. As the demands for software engineers shows no signs of abating I would claim attaining this first requirement would be quite hard. On the other hand, if supp…

> A professional certificate is not a quality grading tool, it's a pricing mechanism. Is it? At one time, physicians, too, were not all that keen on the idea of licensing. " David A. Johnson and Humayun J. Chaudhry's surprisingly engaging Medical Licensing and Discipline in America: A History of the Federation of State Medical Boards was published to commemorate the centennial celebration of the Federation of State M…

The goat testicle treatment reference is grand,sir!

I'm not so sure medicine is the best example in managing a rational body work. It's still riddled with eminence rather than evidence based treatments. The disparity between the stuff that works - which is friggin amazing - and between what is at best invasive placebo is quite large.

But yeah, I agree, licensing if done properly can cut the tail of total nutjobs and incompetents. I'm not still sure if that can be the foremost motivator, though.

Re: Ask HN: How would you set up national certification for software engineers?

#60

Post by tdb7893 »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #58
fsloth wrote: post #26

A professional certificate is not a quality grading tool, it's a pricing mechanism. Thus the demand for the certification needs to come from the selfish needs of the certified profession. First requirement is that there is an oversupply of qualified candidates. As the demands for software engineers shows no signs of abating I would claim attaining this first requirement would be quite hard. On the other hand, if supp…

> A professional certificate is not a quality grading tool, it's a pricing mechanism. Is it? At one time, physicians, too, were not all that keen on the idea of licensing. " David A. Johnson and Humayun J. Chaudhry's surprisingly engaging Medical Licensing and Discipline in America: A History of the Federation of State Medical Boards was published to commemorate the centennial celebration of the Federation of State M…

I think licenses makes sense for doctors because they are working on people, their solution is generally specific to one person, and a mistake that they make can have dire consequences. Software engineering can also have large consequences but in those cases it's probably significantly more effective to test the actual product than test the engineers.
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