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How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

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Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#401

Post by sokoloff »

smsm42 wrote: post #289
sokoloff wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that "The IRS already knows what taxes you owe." is patently false in the vast majority of cases. In 2012 (the last year for which I have a breakdown: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/12rswinbulreturnfilings.pdf ), of the 239 million returns filed, about 143 million are individual returns. Of the 143 million individual returns, about 13% or 18.6 million use 1040EZ ( http://www.freeby50.com/2012/12/what-per…

Great analysis. One thing to add though - some of these people have to also file state returns. Which in TurboTax pretty much automatic, but without it it'd be separate return which has to be filed separately - which means same work as for Federal, so people would still need something like TurboTax - unless also each state that has income tax makes their own system too.

I do expect that would happen over time (even to the extent that states would change their tax laws to align with the federal auto-calculated tax systems).

I support most systems that would take the burden and aggravation off the American public. I also worry that it would make it even more opaque than it is today. (I don't believe we'd have the current rate of taxation nor spending if we hadn't instituted a payroll withholding scheme and Americans had to actually save and write a check to the government each year.)

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#402

Post by ruleabidinguser »

wldcordeiro wrote: post #378
c22 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe there are systems that can't be gamed. Given that assumption it's probably better to decide policy based on actual results. In places where social programs are abundant you have fewer suffering individuals, it seems healthier to count that as a win and not get hung up on the (truly rather small) percentage of people potentially gaming the system.

Seems like the comment you're replying to is fine with our system that can be gamed by those at the top but is afraid of gaming by those at the bottom.

I think thats pretty unfair of you and it doesnt seem like thats what they were saying actually

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#403

Post by ruleabidinguser »

TwoBit wrote: post #359
ruleabidinguser wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why precisely is having the worlds largest military bad? Do you think it doesnt add any value? It seems theres a lot of people outside of America who'd like to see it shrunk for very bad reasons. Why not keep the military and solve our problems without it? We need it to be safe now, and until we've already solved our problems, we'll still need it. Obviously it doesn't always work well and it definitely causes problem…

I disagree that we need as much military as we have now, in order to be safe.

You could definitely be right but I don't think I know enough to say

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#404

Post by Broken_Hippo »

mb_72 wrote: post #344

I have experience as a tax payer in Estonia (employee only) and Australia (employee and business owner). In Estonia I login to my bank with my citizens ID card, click through a few screens ... and my tax return is done. All the financial information supplied by my employer to the government is immediately visible and checkable, not to mention donations made to tax-deductable organisations is also immediately visible.…

It is similar in Norway - though I've only watched my spouse do his.

You get an email notifying you, log into the government website to check it. If you agree, the only action necessary is to pay the bill, if there is one. Otherwise, your refund will arrive. You have the option of doing actual filing or disputing the figures, but obviously don't have to.

Edit: The tax is figured out when you start work or update for things like marriage or children. This seems to include a trip to the tax authority for a personalized tax schedule.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#405

Post by kwhitefoot »

xupybd wrote: post #97

I live in New Zealand. I don't have to file taxes if my income is a standard wage my tax payments are automatic. My employer deducts them from my wage and they are sent to the IRD (Our government tax dept). My student loan and super payments are also automatic. If there is anything wrong then at the end of the tax year I can file to correct things. I also get donations rebates, this is a one page form that lists all…

Same here in Norway. They send me the form to fill in but it is already filled in so all I have to do is correct anything that is wrong or missing. For me that is only property and money held off-shore.

And, of course, I can make the corrections on-line using the tax department web site and I get an immediate estimate of how much tax is due (or overpaid) after the corrections.

Of course Turbo Tax would be against a system like this because for most people it would mean that they don't need to pay Turbo Tax.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#406

Post by dennis_jeeves »

Interesting, that in all income tax discussions the underlying premise of income tax is not questioned.

For me it's a form of extortion. If I avail of certain services provided by the government, I would expect a bill only for the services I availed. And just like my ISP I should have the option of not opting for the for their services.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#407

Post by TulliusCicero »

dennis_jeeves wrote: post #406

Interesting, that in all income tax discussions the underlying premise of income tax is not questioned. For me it's a form of extortion. If I avail of certain services provided by the government, I would expect a bill only for the services I availed. And just like my ISP I should have the option of not opting for the for their services.

Whether income tax is generally acceptable is a much broader (and philosophical) topic than the simpler question of whether it should be simpler to handle (obviously yes unless you make money from its complexity).

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#408

Post by colinbartlett »

kalleboo wrote: post #400
hackuser wrote: post #94

A tangential issue: It seems almost impossible to me that the systems of tax preparation services, whether cloud-based, local software, or offline, are secure. The standard of security is, make the target more expensive to breach than it's worth to the attacker. How much would it be worth to have access to the tax returns of large swaths of the population? I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing it's easily worth b…

In Sweden, as government documents, tax returns are public information. Every year after tax season the tabloids print long lists of "The richest people in YOUR neighborhood! Is your neighbor on there?". You can look up anyone you want.

That's amazing. And here in the States, there is not even a legal way for us to see our President's return.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#409

Post by dennis_jeeves »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #407
dennis_jeeves wrote: post #406

Interesting, that in all income tax discussions the underlying premise of income tax is not questioned. For me it's a form of extortion. If I avail of certain services provided by the government, I would expect a bill only for the services I availed. And just like my ISP I should have the option of not opting for the for their services.

Whether income tax is generally acceptable is a much broader (and philosophical) topic than the simpler question of whether it should be simpler to handle (obviously yes unless you make money from its complexity).

In that case the debate would never end. Even before we get down to tax complexity, how do we decide if 10% of income as tax is good enough, versus 20%? Notice the rabbit hole of arguments that one can get sucked into.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#410

Post by monodeldiablo »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #398
rayiner wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would anyone oppose a simple system like this? Because you want to make people angry and upset at least once a year at the government? Because you want to remind people that taxes are something the government takes, instead of letting them think of taxes as money they never earned to begin with. I love paying my taxes, but if you think taxes are bad (and lots of people do), then the current U.S. system makes to…

Hidden transactions are a problem in any somewhat free economy, whether it's insurance, club dues, auto payments to service providers, or taxes. The usual sales point is that "But you don't have to think about them!" and the problem is that you never think about them -- when you should. That's not saying taxes should be onerous or deliberately painful -- any more than paying your bank's monthly fees should be onerous…

Nobody's advocating taxes as "hidden" transactions. You used the example of your bank's monthly fees... which is far less transparent than this suggestion. My bank simply emails me a reminder to check my account with them once per month. It doesn't allow me to contest or correct their accounting at all.

Your fear -- that by removing the hassle of tax preparation, people will dwell in blissful ignorance of their tax burden and the government will jack up tax rates -- is not borne out by my experiences in countries where return-free tax filing is the norm.

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