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The 10,000-hour rule is wrong and perpetuates a cruel myth

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Re: The 10,000-hour rule is wrong and perpetuates a cruel myth

#31
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of your programming is not with the intent to deliberately improve. Thus it doesn't count towards that 10,000 hours. That's the biggest misconception of the 10,000 hour metric.

Granted, but while things like data structures and relationships come naturally to my mind, I am frustrated by the fact that I have to keep looking up syntax for particular loops or method calls. A large factor in this situation is that I regularly jump between several different languages, but nevertheless, it is frustrating to have to pause my flow and look up things so regularly. Perhaps it is a patience thing with…

> I am frustrated by the fact that I have to keep looking up syntax for particular loops or method calls.

Have you ever tried to deliberately memorize the syntax? Just repeating the same action for 10k hours doesn't make you an expert.

It's like how sportsman don't improve by competing constantly. They improve through deliberate practice. Work is like competing, you aren't trying to improve, you are trying to get stuff done.

Re: The 10,000-hour rule is wrong and perpetuates a cruel myth

#32

Gladwell did a bait and switch, in his book first ignoring the role of talent, and then when pressed for more details, clarifying that the 10,000 hour rule applies to those who already have talent but then practiced 10,00 hours to hone such talent. http://greyenlightenment.com/malcolm-gladwell-bait-and-switc... I think the amended version of '10,000 hours' is closer to being correct, and probably not the one the publ…

As with anything in the real world there is always a "yes but" and "it depends". 10k hours succeeded because it is generally the right idea. It's not a mathematical rule. Some common sense is still required. You can't stop people interpreting it to hear only what they want to hear.

Re: The 10,000-hour rule is wrong and perpetuates a cruel myth

#34
"For a pair of identical twins, the twin who practiced music more did not do better on the tests than the twin who practiced less"

So this doesn't make sense - otherwise, why practice at all?

And indeed the article goes on to explain that the "music ability test" only tested some things, like ability to read notes.

Maybe the scientists need to work on improving their measurement devices first, before making sweeping claims about talent and practice...

Re: The 10,000-hour rule is wrong and perpetuates a cruel myth

#35
Reality is cruel too :(. While I am persuaded by the idea that nature may be as important or more so than nurture I don't agree with much of what this article says about politics, social engineering, etc. It says the 10k hour myth is cruel, but bucketing people into categories and then postulating on their potential contribution on the basis of science as dubious as the 10k hour rule is more so.

Re: The 10,000-hour rule is wrong and perpetuates a cruel myth

#36

"For a pair of identical twins, the twin who practiced music more did not do better on the tests than the twin who practiced less" So this doesn't make sense - otherwise, why practice at all? And indeed the article goes on to explain that the "music ability test" only tested some things, like ability to read notes. Maybe the scientists need to work on improving their measurement devices first, before making sweeping…

Sounds like the law of diminishing returns to me. Practicing matters, but there is some point where more practice will not yield a lot of result.

Re: The 10,000-hour rule is wrong and perpetuates a cruel myth

#37

I am always intrigued by the 10KH argument. Here's my story - I just turned 50 last year. Been programming for nearly 35 years of that time. Not just 10,000 hours here - I think we are talking well over 1,000 individual applications and utilities over that time. Do I consider myself one of the best at my profession?? Not even close. Probably wouldn't even rate myself in the top 1/3rd of the worlds programmers. I've m…

Given how poor science reporting usually is, the "10k hours" rule as understood by the general public is almost certainly not what the original research had shown. That said, IMO to first approximation the rule's not wrong. It's just that you hit diminishing returns fairly quickly, i.e. your skill grows logarithmically, and 10k hours is roughly where the linear-ish part cuts off for most people. Of course second-order effects ("talent") affect how quickly you reach the cut-off, or how ahead / behind the curve after 10k hours. So take it as a rule-of-thumb, rather than some fundamental law.

Another sentiment you touched on about "guys who have been alive less time than [you] have been programming who can run rings around [you]": you are that guy for some other people. At the minimum, you might as well be a wizard compared to people on the other side of the threshold (and IMO that's one reason why pop-culture representation of "hacking" looks so ridiculous). In Go (as in AlphaGo, not golang) I was encouraged to play against opponents that's slightly weaker, at my level, and stronger. I forgot the proportions, but the idea is that if you only play against weaker opponents you would never improve; only against even opponents you wouldn't improve as quickly; only against stronger opponents you would lose confidence and quit.

To close off with a Naruto analogy (b/c why not, I've already rambled for this long): you're like Rock Lee: he's clearly outclassed compared against the likes of Naruto, Sasuke, etc., but he's still one of the strongest jounin in Konoha, arguably the strongest hidden villages. I'm probably Shikamaru...

Re: The 10,000-hour rule is wrong and perpetuates a cruel myth

#38

Gladwell did a bait and switch, in his book first ignoring the role of talent, and then when pressed for more details, clarifying that the 10,000 hour rule applies to those who already have talent but then practiced 10,00 hours to hone such talent. http://greyenlightenment.com/malcolm-gladwell-bait-and-switc... I think the amended version of '10,000 hours' is closer to being correct, and probably not the one the publ…

I'm sure you can attain mastery in anything by practicing for 10,000 hours. Hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard.

The caveat is that you will not be the best. You might not even be world class. Or even national class. But you are going to be better than somebody who practiced only 1,000 hours no matter how talented they are.

What people forget is that at the very high levels of achievement in any field, 20,000 hours is just the price of entry. Everyone who's playing has practiced for 20,000 hours. Difference between 1st, 2nd, and 10th comes down to talent and a bit of luck.

Re: The 10,000-hour rule is wrong and perpetuates a cruel myth

#39
Assumes Correlation and Causation, ignores Social and Economic situations of the twins groups, doesn't account for the fact that identical twins tend to share (being geared towards) more experiences due to being perceived almost as a single "being", ignores cultural differences in upbringing of different-gender twins, doesn't account for indirect training (i.e. strategy, memorization, sequential steps etc. are parts of a Chess game), doesn't account for perception of time (Time passes slowly when we don't like what we're doing) and completely ignores training "quality" (Playing chess against newbies is useless as practice, playing against masters is enlightening).

It's ALSO not your "fault" that you do not excel at something. Your experiences ever since you were a baby shaped you, your tastes and pretty much determined your whole life.

Still, there is no talent, ask any great programmer, musician, illustrator or whatever, every single one of them will say he/she was shitty, but loved it, so kept doing it. This doesn't completely discards the possibility of genetic disposition to liking something, but undeniably everyone starts on even ground.

Obviously, being complex areas they are affected by many indirect skills, and the more something is loved, the safer it is to assume the indirect skills involved are also loved or at least liked, indirect skills matter. Clearly fiddling with computers and watching movies that involve technology is not programming, but will make you better at it.

In the end, the best explanation so far is that your tastes are the defining factor. And yes, it can be argued that tastes are genetic, but currently there's not nearly enough data to debunk the standing theory, we need more studies and we need better studies, taking all variables into account and actually monitoring the subjects throughout their lives.

Maybe in 50 years we'll find out where our tastes come from. Not that it actually matters since it's out of our control anyways.

Re: The 10,000-hour rule is wrong and perpetuates a cruel myth

#40

I am always intrigued by the 10KH argument. Here's my story - I just turned 50 last year. Been programming for nearly 35 years of that time. Not just 10,000 hours here - I think we are talking well over 1,000 individual applications and utilities over that time. Do I consider myself one of the best at my profession?? Not even close. Probably wouldn't even rate myself in the top 1/3rd of the worlds programmers. I've m…

My sons violin teacher made the point to him after observing him practice (paraphrased):

"What you are doing is playing, not practice. When you play through a piece like that, you spend most of your time on the bits you already know, and just a little time on the parts you find difficult, and you end up not repeating the hard parts very often. To practice, you should stop when you find something difficult, and repeat that part until you can do it well, and then move on to the next."

You will improve through simple repetition (edit: of a whole piece, or anything else where you know large parts of it well), but you will waste a lot of that time cementing things you already know very well.

And this is what marks the difference between time spent "executing" work in an area and practice in an area. Reaching the top in most areas will for most people mean shifting the balance between amount of time worked in that area and the amount of time spent on deliberate practice towards more deliberate practice and less towards performing.

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