Could it be that US antitrust regulation policies and authorities, or lack thereof, are part of the problem?
Edit: not saying it is, but what about the WA deal?
We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen
61–70 of 185 posts
Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen
#62The worst part is that if you're employed, it's probably a job requirement to use at least one of these surveillance capitalism platforms. Most people I know in tech have to be on Slack. Most people I know in advertising and PR have to be on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. For some jobs, like journalism, even the "troops on the ground" are required to post and tweet. Even for jobs without the social media taint, a…
I like Slack, our team communication has never been better, I like Facebook (messenger) because it's a common platform for all my acquaintances. Are we forced to share anything (really) personal though?
The fact is merely using these services is enough to grant them a wealth of information that would have required stasi-like organisation not 30years back.
Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Collectively, it leads to undesirable outcomes." Clearly, there have been very desirable outcomes for most people using these services. Otherwise, no one would use them. I don't think the short-term vs long-term tipping point has been reached quite yet.
I'd say what's described in the post is an undesirable outcome. "Otherwise, no one would use them." Cigarette smokers also find value in what they do (opportunity to contemplate, enjoyment, socialize) - yet the cost (for the individual and the society at large) is much bigger than the benefit. So just looking at the perceived value alone is not the best measure to evaluate the overall impact.
While I'm personally all for regulating data use, I don’t see any negative outcomes presented in this opinion. Just a lot of empty, fiery attacks at Surveillance Capitalists who have apparently “robbed us of our welfare, agency, and freedom.”
Even the premise of the piece, that “we've lost control of our personal data”, isn’t a negative outcome. It's a restatement of the problem: people give away their short-sightedly in exchange for services.
And this gets to my point precisely. Collectively, we're still very distant from the pains of corporate surveillance. The clearest violation I know of is employee data abuse but that noise died ~2010.[0][1] I feel the chilling effects of social media the most--worrying that someone will record me acting like a fool at a party--but frankly, that's something the internet we champion still facilitates. Nothing stops my friend from posting that video on his personal blog. Maybe polarization due to filter bubbles? Still, I've got a hunch people have always consumed info inline with their beliefs and mingled with the like-minded. Also, I'm not sure how a democratized internet is supposed to handle the spread of misinformation and shady political advertising.
[0]: https://thenextweb.com/us/2010/09/16/the-legal-implications-...
[1]: http://gawker.com/5445592/why-you-shouldnt-trust-facebook-wi...
Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
I like Slack, our team communication has never been better, I like Facebook (messenger) because it's a common platform for all my acquaintances. Are we forced to share anything (really) personal though?
The fact is merely using these services is enough to grant them a wealth of information that would have required stasi-like organisation not 30years back.
Oh yeah, the old age of informers. Everyone is losing their job to machines. :(
Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Collectively, it leads to undesirable outcomes." Clearly, there have been very desirable outcomes for most people using these services. Otherwise, no one would use them. I don't think the short-term vs long-term tipping point has been reached quite yet.
Sounds like just-world fallacy. There's plenty of examples of people who take actions that do not lead to desirable outcomes. The idea that people choosing something in itself proves its value is nonsense.
I should have been clearer. I'm terrified of the power corporation's have amassed through surveillance, but no one I know outside of the tech community sees a problem. Most see Google and Facebook as "benevolent overlords"[0]. How can we convince people that danger lurks in the future given their love affair with the free, life-changing services of the "benevolent?"
[0]: Quote from my roommate at Duke: "I, for one, welcome our benevolent overlords."
Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Collectively, it leads to undesirable outcomes." Clearly, there have been very desirable outcomes for most people using these services. Otherwise, no one would use them. I don't think the short-term vs long-term tipping point has been reached quite yet.
You missed the part where the parent agrees with you - "For people it made a lot of sense to use these services individually" That doesn't in any way invalidate that 'Collectively, it leads to undesirable outcomes'. There are clearly undesirable collective outcomes that have resulted from this.
My problem is that the "collective" would vote in favor of their new corporate overlords and retort "what undesirable outcomes?"
While you and I fear the power corporations like Google have amassed through surveillance, most people don't, and I'm afraid they won't until they get burned.
Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen
#67The worst part is that if you're employed, it's probably a job requirement to use at least one of these surveillance capitalism platforms. Most people I know in tech have to be on Slack. Most people I know in advertising and PR have to be on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. For some jobs, like journalism, even the "troops on the ground" are required to post and tweet. Even for jobs without the social media taint, a…
I like Slack, our team communication has never been better, I like Facebook (messenger) because it's a common platform for all my acquaintances. Are we forced to share anything (really) personal though?
By using either you disclose your network of friends, location, the content of your communication, and -- if you didn't take steps to counter it, essentially the majority of web pages you visit.
All voluntarily. Stasi would be jealous.
Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen
#68I agree with the sentiment of this article, but only to a degree. I recommend anyone interested in this to read Open Standards and the Digital Age, by Andrew Russel. The book is a partial refutation of the idea of an 'open web' using historical examples, the most shocking being the failure of open and democratic methods to build an open Internet standard versus the success of Serf and Kahn inventing TCP/IP in a close…
You agree with the sentiment of the article but then you're muddying the waters and shifting the discussion from Big Data companies like Google and Facebook to some abstract ideal of freedom and openness.
The only "misleading language" that I see here belongs to you. The author is very clear about what disease has infected software development and the internet.
I don't remember many spyware as a service and data collection software platforms ~10 ago. The freedom to not have your information collected, analyzed, stored forever sold off and used against your interests WAS there.
Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen
#69The argument is an angry version of "if it's free, you're the product," which at this stage is very uncontroversial, and only comments on the "we've lost control of our data" point made in the original post. The link between what author calls "people farming" and "surveillance" is not compelling. That said, I personally agree with the author in identifying the main problem of the web as people tracking. In my opinion…
> What's specific to the web though, (and that is starting to spread out of the web) is the data tracking.
No it's not. Tracking is as old as marketing. And Taylorism comes to mind in the workplace for even older form a of systematic tracking.
The scale is vaguely novel, but this is becquse meatspace is catching up with the number of data points that get tracked (IoT) and tools to analyze all of this data.
Take something as innocuous-looking as video surveillance in a grocery store. The next thing you know, it'll use face recognition to systematically profile shoppers based on other data sources and send you a text message with a custom promo automatically, all while giving store owner the aggregated analytics they need to test store layouts that might increase profit.
Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
An Internet connection is 40-50$ a digital ocean vps is $5.00. This is not the problem you are looking to solve.
Operating some server software on the wimpy VPS is very different different from having everybody's daily-use computers be fully networked with other computers. Also, you likely already have an Internet connection so the marginal cost is zero. And you don't need a credit card to do it. To get network effects, it's all about low friction and low barriers to entry.
I agree with you and the grandparent to this (my) post. So: I think the way to go is in some server-side OS suitable for daily-use by ordinary folk.