We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen • Hacker News Board

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#21

Post by subjectsigma » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 2:40 AM UTC

I agree with the sentiment of this article, but only to a degree.

I recommend anyone interested in this to read Open Standards and the Digital Age, by Andrew Russel. The book is a partial refutation of the idea of an 'open web' using historical examples, the most shocking being the failure of open and democratic methods to build an open Internet standard versus the success of Serf and Kahn inventing TCP/IP in a closed and corporate environment, funded by the military. The reality is that some systems critical to the operation of the Internet, such as DNS, are highly centralized, un-open, un-private and un-free, or at least when compared with cyberlibertarian expectations of how the Internet should be. It also addresses other perversions of 'open', such as the irony that some of FLOSS's biggest customers are megacorps like Apple and Microsoft, who up until recently contributed way less back than what they took.

I don't think the web was 'stolen' from 'us', I think people just don't realize how controlling it was before. They're mistaking an epiphany for an actual loss of freedom that may or may not have been there in the first place. We need to fight for a free and open Internet, but let's not kid ourselves with inaccurate and misleading language.

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#22

Post by devoply » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 2:42 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #12

It all went wrong at the firewall. As soon as peer-to-peer was over and NAT became a security layer as well as a technological construct to put more than one host behind one public IP it was essentially game-over. If you want to reboot the web then you need to reboot the internet first, solve the insecurity of privately hosted servers first and convince ISPs that symmetric connectivity should be the rule. After that…

An Internet connection is 40-50$ a digital ocean vps is $5.00. This is not the problem you are looking to solve.

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#23

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 2:46 AM UTC

devoply wrote: post #22

jacquesm wrote: post #12

It all went wrong at the firewall. As soon as peer-to-peer was over and NAT became a security layer as well as a technological construct to put more than one host behind one public IP it was essentially game-over. If you want to reboot the web then you need to reboot the internet first, solve the insecurity of privately hosted servers first and convince ISPs that symmetric connectivity should be the rule. After that…

An Internet connection is 40-50$ a digital ocean vps is $5.00. This is not the problem you are looking to solve.

The consequences of that asymmetry go much further than just a price difference. It's about a whole raft of applications that are simply impossible or at best extremely hard.

The internet was meant to be peer-to-peer not server-to-consumer.

Adding more servers, even at $5 won't change that.

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#24

Post by jordigh » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 2:50 AM UTC

empath75 wrote: post #2

I've been thinking of closing my Facebook account, but I'd lose contact with so many friends and family. They don't use email or any kind of instant messenger any more, and nobody makes phone calls any more. If you're not on Facebook you might as well not exist.

I still exist without Facebook. The people in my life I care about know that they can email me (to a non-Gmail account).

It's not that impossible to be "off the grid" so to speak. The vast majority of Facebook interaction I see is pretty banal anyway. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#25

Post by zitterbewegung » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 2:57 AM UTC

The web wasn't stolen we gave it to them. You didn't have to sign up for Facebook. You don't have to sign up for googles services. Look how people like RMS use the web .

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#26

Post by imartin2k » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 3:04 AM UTC

zitterbewegung wrote: post #25

The web wasn't stolen we gave it to them. You didn't have to sign up for Facebook. You don't have to sign up for googles services. Look how people like RMS use the web .

It shows the problem with short-term vs long-term interests. For people it made a lot of sense to use these services individually. But collectively, it leads to undesirable outcomes.

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#27

Post by fny » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 3:05 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #23

devoply wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An Internet connection is 40-50$ a digital ocean vps is $5.00. This is not the problem you are looking to solve.

The consequences of that asymmetry go much further than just a price difference. It's about a whole raft of applications that are simply impossible or at best extremely hard. The internet was meant to be peer-to-peer not server-to-consumer. Adding more servers, even at $5 won't change that.

The internet started as a server-to-client effort, and the peer-to-peer nature evolved much, much later. The entire purpose of ARPANET et al in the early days was to give researchers access to national supercomputing centers across the US. If anything, what we're seeing today is a regression to the days of old because large corporations provide centralized value to consumers, and consumers can't pry themselves free.

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#28

Post by todayiamme » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 3:08 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #23

devoply wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An Internet connection is 40-50$ a digital ocean vps is $5.00. This is not the problem you are looking to solve.

The consequences of that asymmetry go much further than just a price difference. It's about a whole raft of applications that are simply impossible or at best extremely hard. The internet was meant to be peer-to-peer not server-to-consumer. Adding more servers, even at $5 won't change that.

But it can never be truly peer-to-peer or decentralized due to the economics of last-mile connectivity. Connecting machines in a neighborhood is more expensive and difficult from an infrastructure perspective than hooking up a computer in a server farm.

This in of itself changes the costs and expectations of the parties involved which means things will likely slump back to a permutation of this status quo even with a different standard.

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#29

Post by bbcbasic » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 3:14 AM UTC

empath75 wrote: post #2

I've been thinking of closing my Facebook account, but I'd lose contact with so many friends and family. They don't use email or any kind of instant messenger any more, and nobody makes phone calls any more. If you're not on Facebook you might as well not exist.

Convince them to install Whatsapp? If they have a phone its an easy way to keep in contact and send text/image/videos without all the FB BS. I wished I used it sooner!

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#30

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 3:19 AM UTC

subjectsigma wrote: post #21

I agree with the sentiment of this article, but only to a degree. I recommend anyone interested in this to read Open Standards and the Digital Age, by Andrew Russel. The book is a partial refutation of the idea of an 'open web' using historical examples, the most shocking being the failure of open and democratic methods to build an open Internet standard versus the success of Serf and Kahn inventing TCP/IP in a close…

Never underestimate the ability of people to romanticise a past that never existed.