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High US health care spending explained by its high material standard of living

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Re: High US health care spending explained by its high material standard of living

#31

Is it possible that healthcare in the US is a "superior good" (definition in article) because the lower quartiles can't afford proper care and as they become wealthier they progress from zero care, to basic plans that don't cover nearly what they should, to plans equivalent to the care people receive elsewhere in the world as a right of citizenship?

The bottom quartile didn't get zero care. The poorest of the poor are all eligible for Medicaid or get ad hoc acute care from emergency rooms.

The people who get shafted are the middle-class or working class people who are stuck with contracting gigs or shitty employers who face financial ruin if they get sick. Your average truck driver, for example, is far more likely to die from preventable heart ailments due to the nature of the job and the inability to access medical care, even with insurance. That's a big reason why CVS Doc in the Box and Urgent care is a thing.

Re: High US health care spending explained by its high material standard of living

#32

Strange, this neglects that portion of health care spend that is accounted for by profits, by marketing expenses and administrative/billing bloat that ensues. It also neglects that for its massively higher spend 10% of Americans aren't covered and therefore don't receive preventative care yielding massively higher final costs, and it doesn't take into account the WHO ranks the US system as 31st in the world dramatica…

The Atlantic ran an analysis of where the costs go:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-ame...

Essentially, it's a mess of perverse incentives that are unintended side effects of heavy regulation.

Re: High US health care spending explained by its high material standard of living

#33
post #29

So his claim that the us has a higher standard of living is based on it having a higher AIC. But does this take into account that countries with higher taxation and hence public expenditure could reduce the need for households to spend money on public goods/services?

I find it odd to compare the nations of Europe individually, but taking the United States as a whole. Availability of subnational metrics probably makes this difficult, but averaging West Virginia and California is probably distortive.

It is odd and would be a damning set of metrics. People actually migrate away from the Deep South because their spin on Medicaid is garbage and there's no providers.

Re: High US health care spending explained by its high material standard of living

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "neglects"? Did the author somehow remove that from his numbers? The WHO ranks the US low because 62.5% of their score is a measure of inequality. Only 37.5% of their score is related to actual health care measures (health outcomes and patient satisfaction). The US scores #1 on patient satisfaction. http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf

Patient satisfaction is positively correlated with mortality. It does not necessarily indicate superior care. https://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/publish/news/newsroom/6223

Then apparently a full 75% (rather than the merely 62.5% I thought) of the WHO's scores are nonsense, and not indicative of health care quality.

Re: High US health care spending explained by its high material standard of living

#35
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "neglects"? Did the author somehow remove that from his numbers? The WHO ranks the US low because 62.5% of their score is a measure of inequality. Only 37.5% of their score is related to actual health care measures (health outcomes and patient satisfaction). The US scores #1 on patient satisfaction. http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf

I assume patient satisfaction only takes into account people who managed to become patients, and doesn't include people in the U.S. who needed treatment but couldn't get it.

Why assume when you can read the report?

Re: High US health care spending explained by its high material standard of living

#36
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have something more current?

We have something more relevant, which is that the US spends far more on healthcare than anywhere else, but is in the 10 OECD countries with the lowest life expectancy. http://visual.ons.gov.uk/how-does-uk-healthcare-spending-com... > While the USA outspent the UK on healthcare (£6,311 and £2,777 per person2 respectively) in 2014, average life expectancy at birth in the USA was 78.8, compared with 81.4 in the UK. > D…

We are all aware that the US spends a lot on healthcare. The article we are discussing provides a good explanation of why.

The fact that health care and health outcomes are minimally correlated is well known; see RAND, Oregon, and lots of non-RCT studies that generally fail to find much correlation (e.g. this one, which made the rounds recently https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/25135... ). I'm not sure what the relevance of that is to this article, however.

Re: High US health care spending explained by its high material standard of living

#38

Slightly off topic but is there is a such thing as universal affordable good healthcare? I've talked to a few U.S. citizens that worked abroad who said healthcare in European countries is universally available but the demand outstrips the supply causing longer wait times to get treated than in the U.S. and that they prefer the U.S. system. These are of course people who have good jobs in the U.S. with company provide…

>I've talked to a few U.S. citizens that worked abroad who said healthcare in European countries is universally available but the demand outstrips the supply causing longer wait times to get treated than in the U.S. and that they prefer the U.S. system.

Whether we want to ration care by ability to pay or by another means, such as severity of illness, care will have to be rationed -- and the degree to which it must be rationed is inversely related to what percentage of people are covered by it.

So of course well-off folks will perceive a system with a greater percentage of people covered and with care rationed in a way other than 'ability to pay' as being worse than a capitalist system -- they have to wait longer because they're standing in line alongside folks who, in the healthcare system they are used to, could not afford to be standing in line with them at all.

The question is whether that drawback is worth providing access to care to folks who otherwise would not be able to access it.

Re: High US health care spending explained by its high material standard of living

#40
This strikes me as circular logic. "The reason healthcare is expensive is because the US is expensive."

I have no problem with the idea of healthcare expenditures increasing proportionally to GDP because it's a luxury good. This is logical. I'll pay more to protect my life than widgets.

But I don't see the connection between this and the thesis:

>Now, to be clear, my position is not that we ought to be spending as much as we spend. My position is that the issues we face are very similar to the issues faced in Europe and other prosperous countries (and are generally similar to patterns many decades earlier). They are largely differences in degree, not kind. Our large apparent cost differences mostly originate from our significantly higher material standard of living. The long term increases found in the United States and other developed countries are generally a product of ever increasing material living conditions and varying levels of productivity in different economic sectors (healthcare being labor intensive and relatively high skilled at that). Despite the fact that all developed countries allocate a large and increasing share of their consumption expenditures on health care these these richer countries, including the United States, still spend more on other forms of consumption.

That sounds to me like the cost of our healthcare is ultimately up to the market, but that's not a thesis to fight for, as it's always a fact.

By using end result economic data like GPD or AIC to compare healthcare costs the analysis ignores the changing cost of inputs. Those rising costs should be linked to changes in business conditions.

Healthcare costs have been rising faster than inflation. And they have been rising faster than the material standard of living in the US. There are structural problems.

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