Live data from Hacker News

I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

theguardian.com

231–240 of 255 posts

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your concerns are entirely fair, but this also isn't a new issue. Tabloid journalism has been a problem for as long as there have been tabloids. That phenomenon is well known to be highly influential around election times among the part of the population who read those tabloids, even though often that same part of the population will be hurt the most by the measures they are supporting but don't fully understand.

It seems to me that one crucial factor is what you might call "the destruction of the gatekeepers". In politics, you had systematic lying that was intended to deceive people, and lies led directly to Brexit in the UK and Trump's election in the USA. There's a reasonably good account in "Donald Trump breaks the conservative media" http://uk.businessinsider.com/conservative-media-trump-drudg... In the health field, we'…

From that point of view, I'd suggest that the current problem isn't really the destruction of gatekeepers but rather swapping one set of mostly positive external influences (such as traditional journalists with strong professional ethics and critical reporting standards, and genuine expert commentators) for another much less positive set (such as online services that provide communications for the masses, but not in a neutral way, and media spin doctors as commentators).

You mentioned Brexit and Trump, which are case studies in the way people can be influenced by political campaigners, but I find a lot of the criticism of both of those results to be one-sided. After all, it's not as if the official Remain campaign in the UK or the Clinton campaign in the US were telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth either. However, there's less to be gained by fact-checking the losing side once the result is in.

Another recent example that I find more interesting is last week's UK budget. Much has been made of the announced rise in National Insurance rates for self-employed people. It's a controversial issue, because some people do exploit the tax system to pay less than they should by changing their employment status, but also because a lot of people who have never been self-employed themselves really don't understand how it works and tend to leap to conclusions that are objectively wrong. Sadly, rather than starting a potentially useful debate about different ways of working, different levels of risk/reward, and how the tax system should treat them, what has started is a discussion about how the party in power lied (because they gave a manifesto commitment before the last election not to raise the rate for this particular tax), and who can be made to fall on their sword this time to serve the entirely political purposes of who else.

In all of these cases, I think we would have been better off if we'd had a culture that fostered open debate and welcomed but looked critically at advice from those who might have more knowledge or understanding of any given subject. There are a lot of ways we could achieve that, but none of them involve communication channels that seek to influence which messages get through to promote a particular side of the debate. That threat is, in my view, even more serious than politicians who are blatantly lying, because we know some politicians lie a lot and can be sceptical accordingly, but without access to other information as well that scepticism might not make much difference anyway.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#232

He is advocating for censorship. Misinformation spreads everywhere not just the web. Who decides what is "misinformation"? All speech and information is political, because man is a political creature. Who decides what is "political"? His first point about losing control of our personal data is right on though. Even so called "heroes of the web/freedom" are on the "fake news bandwagon". What the hell have we come to w…

He doesn't actually say censorship. He says "by encouraging gatekeepers such as Google and Facebook to continue their efforts to combat the problem." Just putting fake stories at 50th place in the search results say rather than #1 is not censorship.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#233

The marketplace won't sort out the security issues, any more than it sorted out unstable banks. Consumers lack the ability to obtain information, understand the issues, and make good decisions. Computer systems should be regulated for safety, which includes confidentiality and integrity, like everything else.

Just as a counterpoint to your argument about unstable banks: It appears that the marketplace was sorting out the unstable banks, which is why they needed to be "bailed out" by the government.

If the government had not intervened, those banks would have been bankrupted, and rightfully so, because they essentially made a giant bet on the housing market and lost.

The government intervention in the case of the banks prevented a valuable feedback mechanism from taking place, whereby the "bad players" (as in, bad at the game --- at gambling) would have learned from their mistakes. So instead of the negative feedback of bankruptcy, they got the positive feedback of bailouts, and we should expect to see another financial crisis in the not-too-distant future.

What remains to be seen is whether the government itself has a working feedback mechanism for this situation. Will they bail out the banks again? in other words.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opinion. I mean we tell kids to be wary of strangers, but we can't assign a policeman to every stranger. Easier to teach people that they can be deceived or that bad things can happen, than to prevent any deception or bad thing from ever occurring.

How do you cope with the fact that a large slice of the population seeks out bad things and refuses good things? The obvious examples are US news sources such as Fox News, Breitbart and Infowars [1]. However, it could also apply to fast food eating habits. [1] http://uk.businessinsider.com/conservative-media-trump-drudg...

> How do you cope with the fact that a large slice of the population seeks out bad things and refuses good things?

I take comfort in the knowledge that, even if facts don't ultimately win out, human stupidity cannot affect anything beyond this planet.

Even if we end up causing global mass extinctions, life will flourish again in an eon or two.

Even if we develop some sort of planet buster and literally blast Earth to bits, the dust will reform into something else and there's an infinite number of other worlds out there anyway.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#235
I recently found a post about JB Funding giving loans at an affordable rate of 2% and i decided to give it a try after my bank denied me of a loan to improve my business and pay some other debts, luckily for me i was able to obtain a loan from JB Funding and i want to use this media to advise/say, if you are out there in need of any type of loan then you are to contact JB Funding via ( jbf_info@zoho.com ) for more info on how you can get funded fast with easy processing. I wish you all the best.

Ellen Wilson.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#236
I recently found a post about JB Funding giving loans at an affordable rate of 2% and i decided to give it a try after my bank denied me of a loan to improve my business and pay some other debts, luckily for me i was able to obtain a loan from JB Funding and i want to use this media to advise/say, if you are out there in need of any type of loan then you are to contact JB Funding via ( jbf_info@zoho.com ) for more info on how you can get funded fast with easy processing. I wish you all the best.

Ellen Wilson.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you cope with the fact that a large slice of the population seeks out bad things and refuses good things? The obvious examples are US news sources such as Fox News, Breitbart and Infowars [1]. However, it could also apply to fast food eating habits. [1] http://uk.businessinsider.com/conservative-media-trump-drudg...

> How do you cope with the fact that a large slice of the population seeks out bad things and refuses good things? I take comfort in the knowledge that, even if facts don't ultimately win out, human stupidity cannot affect anything beyond this planet. Even if we end up causing global mass extinctions, life will flourish again in an eon or two. Even if we develop some sort of planet buster and literally blast Earth to…

That's the very long view. There are probably better civilizations on other planets ;-)

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#238
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Internet also has to make money at some point, which means there's usually a corporate entity in the chain, one whose money (for better or worse) eventually touches Western banks. So yes, the Internet never forgets (things it can make a buck off of).

Actually no. Saying the internet needs to make money is just as wrong as saying the roads need to make money. The net is just an infrastructure that has to be maintained and paiyd for. "Making money" is absolutely not a neccessety.

Roads do need to make money. We just happen to have a larger concept of "make money" that encompasses increased commerce.

Mailboxes might be a better example of your point.

I'd argue that the current web looks more like roads than mailboxes though. We would have something more like Minitel if we'd gone the mailboxes route.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#239

The web needs more anarchy, not less. Less spoon-feeding people with the truth, let them bear the brunt of their failures. All the problems he mentions are political, stemming from too much power in governments which makes political candidates ruthless.

Agreed. This idea that we have an issue with misinformation is ridiculous. The problem isn't the signal to noise ratio, it's learning how to find the signal in the noise.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#240

Surprised that no one mentioned the new EU data protection directive, which goes a long way to fix the first issue mentioned in the article, the loss of control over our personal data (only for users in Europe though). I studied it in detail as I work in data analysis and consult companies on this, and I honestly think it is one of the best laws produced by the EU so far: It gives users a multitude of rights such as…

The european data privacy laws have been largely ignored by the big US companies thus far, also because they were supported by the Irish gonvernment which did not really go after the endless number of complaints that were filed. In theory the new regulation should improve things, because it's no longer just a guideline as the previous solution.
Post reply on HN