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How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

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Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#111

Post by gst »

freehunter wrote: post #106
hackuser wrote: post #94

A tangential issue: It seems almost impossible to me that the systems of tax preparation services, whether cloud-based, local software, or offline, are secure. The standard of security is, make the target more expensive to breach than it's worth to the attacker. How much would it be worth to have access to the tax returns of large swaths of the population? I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing it's easily worth b…

The answer, of course, is "it's not that secure". Now, Turbo Tax and H&R Block aren't being hacked, but breaking into their systems isn't the easy way. And like you said, attackers want to take the easy way. The easy way is to get just enough info from your targets as it takes to extract money from them. And in the past few years, e-filing fraud has skyrocketed. The mantra is "file your taxes before someone else does…

> The mantra is "file your taxes before someone else does", because the number of people who are submitting their tax form only to find out it's already been submitted is greater than ever before.

The IRS is liable for losses due to fraud, so why would I care about fraud? It's up to the IRS to secure their systems.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#112

Post by JohnTHaller »

gst wrote: post #111
freehunter wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer, of course, is "it's not that secure". Now, Turbo Tax and H&R Block aren't being hacked, but breaking into their systems isn't the easy way. And like you said, attackers want to take the easy way. The easy way is to get just enough info from your targets as it takes to extract money from them. And in the past few years, e-filing fraud has skyrocketed. The mantra is "file your taxes before someone else does…

> The mantra is "file your taxes before someone else does", because the number of people who are submitting their tax form only to find out it's already been submitted is greater than ever before. The IRS is liable for losses due to fraud, so why would I care about fraud? It's up to the IRS to secure their systems.

Perhaps because it is a long and painful process to prove it and then get your money.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#113

Post by cmurf »

gst wrote: post #111
freehunter wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer, of course, is "it's not that secure". Now, Turbo Tax and H&R Block aren't being hacked, but breaking into their systems isn't the easy way. And like you said, attackers want to take the easy way. The easy way is to get just enough info from your targets as it takes to extract money from them. And in the past few years, e-filing fraud has skyrocketed. The mantra is "file your taxes before someone else does…

> The mantra is "file your taxes before someone else does", because the number of people who are submitting their tax form only to find out it's already been submitted is greater than ever before. The IRS is liable for losses due to fraud, so why would I care about fraud? It's up to the IRS to secure their systems.

You have to prove they're liable first. It's unlikely they'd admit it, and even more unlikely that you'd get a prosecutor to take your case.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#114

Post by cmurf »

JacobHenner wrote: post #105
xupybd wrote: post #97

I live in New Zealand. I don't have to file taxes if my income is a standard wage my tax payments are automatic. My employer deducts them from my wage and they are sent to the IRD (Our government tax dept). My student loan and super payments are also automatic. If there is anything wrong then at the end of the tax year I can file to correct things. I also get donations rebates, this is a one page form that lists all…

Because it'd put accountants, lawyers, and firms like these out of work.

So in other words, the free market has produced a pile of jobs that we don't really need? Lobbyists get paid money to get politicians to supply a deduction as a line item on some obscure form, which increases red tape, which requires a need for a free market service, the revenue from that service in turn goes to feed more lobbying for more red tape. This is basically collusion, using the worst aspects of the free market and government, in simultaneous failures.

Meanwhile, the accounting and tax lay industry is part of the lobbying effort to grow their business on the back end, rather than making the case to the customer on the front end. It'd double dealing.

So I'm hardly sympathetic, but yes considering there are an ass tonne of jobs that would just vanish overnight, there'd maybe need to be a transitional phase, just avoid an abrupt change. But how do you shrink a market in a non-disruptive and fair way considering it grew in a distruptive and unfair way in the first place?

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#115

Post by peller »

JohnTHaller wrote: post #112
gst wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mantra is "file your taxes before someone else does", because the number of people who are submitting their tax form only to find out it's already been submitted is greater than ever before. The IRS is liable for losses due to fraud, so why would I care about fraud? It's up to the IRS to secure their systems.

Perhaps because it is a long and painful process to prove it and then get your money.

This is absolutely the case. My parents' personal data was dumped when one of the major health providers got hacked a few years ago, and somebody started submitting junk returns with their info. Each season it takes them easily 20+ hours on the phone, and usually the IRS won't believe their identity over the phone (understandable enough) so they need to show up in person at the nearest IRS office (which isn't very near, and requires an appointment - another 3-4hrs on hold to schedule, and they never take you on time when you get there). It's a nightmare, and if you choose not to resolve it, you're just setting yourself up to get audited.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#116

Post by aaotg »

metaphor wrote: post #69
the_cat_kittles wrote: post #13

slightly off topic, but... you can file for free using any number of tax prep software if you make less than ~64k a year: https://www.irs.gov/uac/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-for-...

You forgot to mention the waterfall of caveats and trip hazards associated with any of those supposed free offerings.

so did you

even if your intentions are pure such a vague unqualified comment smells a lot like FUD

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#117

Post by edoceo »

nodesocket wrote: post #29
bluedino wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying TurboTax $59.99 is cheaper than going to H&R Block and paying a tax preparer $169

Or $650 which was my fee from H&R last year for one hour of service. (I own a California LLC) Anybody know a good alternative? I'm thinking about trying TurboTax Self-Employed for $89.99.

That's a good price. My accountant bill is like $3k/yr. 4 companies+equity, moderately complex personal.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#118

Post by sokoloff »

metaphor wrote: post #88
beezle wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not entirely true. I have received money back on taxes that I filed with an error that resulted in my overpayment. So in a simple case, yes they will return money they owe you. But I would not expect them to file an optimized return on your behalf and you probably already know if you should be doing this yourself.

> But I would not expect them to file an optimized return on your behalf and you probably already know if you should be doing this yourself. Playing devil's advocate, why not? They all claim to maximize your tax return, and TurboTax specifically claims no tax knowledge needed too.

TurboTax claims no knowledge of the tax law is needed.

Knowledge of your personal circumstances is required and TurboTax's interview process guides you through extracting that information.

Charitable donations (to take a straight "optimized return" angle). How much did you give? Did you receive anything of value in return?

Intuit (TurboTax) doesn't know that info. H&R Block doesn't. The IRS doesn't. CreditKarma doesn't. You do.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#119

Post by iopq »

cmurf wrote: post #114
JacobHenner wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it'd put accountants, lawyers, and firms like these out of work.

So in other words, the free market has produced a pile of jobs that we don't really need? Lobbyists get paid money to get politicians to supply a deduction as a line item on some obscure form, which increases red tape, which requires a need for a free market service, the revenue from that service in turn goes to feed more lobbying for more red tape. This is basically collusion, using the worst aspects of the free mar…

> the free market

it's not the free market when you lobby the GOVERNMENT to do what you want it to do

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#120

Post by baddox »

cmurf wrote: post #114
JacobHenner wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it'd put accountants, lawyers, and firms like these out of work.

So in other words, the free market has produced a pile of jobs that we don't really need? Lobbyists get paid money to get politicians to supply a deduction as a line item on some obscure form, which increases red tape, which requires a need for a free market service, the revenue from that service in turn goes to feed more lobbying for more red tape. This is basically collusion, using the worst aspects of the free mar…

For most definitions of "free market," government subsidy of an industry doesn't qualify.
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