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Convertible and SAFE notes

avc.com

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Re: Convertible and SAFE notes

#11
post #6

It's really not that hard to understand how these notes convert and how much you are diluting if you spend just a few minutes modeling it out with https://angelcalc.com Of course it's still possible to get more dilution than expected if you raise at unrealistically high caps (or uncapped!) and convert at a lower valuation down the road, but even that is probably less painful than a conventional down round.

Agreed. We walked all our angels through a 3 scenario (low, goal, home-run) Series A pre-money valuation analysis using a calculator. Bit overwhelming for some but everyone appreciated the effort.

The biggest benefits of the note structure to us were a) Rolling close b) Not wasting time debating "valuation" when neither us nor the angels were capable of estimating a number with limited to no data.

Re: Convertible and SAFE notes

#12
> They defer the issue of valuation and, more importantly, dilution

That's what the cap if for. If the founder is 19 years old, fine, read a book on it (I recommend this: https://www.amazon.com/Funded-Entrepreneurs-Guide-Raising-Fi... but basically any will do) but angel investors that don't know what caps are are dumb angels.

> They obfuscate the amount of dilution the founder(s) is taking.

Also what a cap is for. Unless we're talking about it from the founders perspective, in which case it's their decision to raise another round or not. If the dilution doesn't make sense don't raise the round. If you're desperate and were banking on hitting the cap maybe the company wasn't worth what you thought it was worth when you raised your Angel round.

> They can build up, like a house of cards, on top of each other

Here I 100% agree. Early family and friends money or angel investments or small seeds should be convertible, but subsequent rounds should be priced, or a down round is going to eviscerate the cap table.

> They put the founder in the difficult position of promising an amount of ownership to an angel/seed investor that they cannot actually deliver down the round when the notes convert.

What? How? Only if the founder is lying or doesn't put in a cap can I possibly see this happening.

> The company has been around for a few years and has financed itself along with way with all sorts of various notes at various caps (or no cap) and finally the whole fucking mess is resolved and nobody owns anywhere near as much as they had thought.

False dilemma. The choice isn't "use convertible and get a fucking mess" or "do priced rounds for equity and keep things clean". If you keep your capped convertible round simple and follow it with a priced round for normal equity anyone with two brain cells can figure out what the outcome will be given different scenarios. I've seen some really, really fucked up priced rounds because some dumb angel investor took a dump on the shareholder agreement and it took hundreds of thousands in legal fees and payoffs to fix by the time they were going for what they ended up calling their seed (they renamed their small seed their angel round).

> It can easily be done for less than $5k in a few days and we do that quite often.

That isn't the issue. The issue is that a bunch of regulatory issues come in once a company is selling stock that a two person startup doesn't want to waste time dealing with.

> The first convertible or SAFE note issued in a company should have a cap on the total amount of notes than can be issued. A number like $1mm or max $2mm sounds right to me.

What? Is this at the idea phase or something further along? Because I don't know anyone that has a $1M cap if there is any serious amount of work or team.

> Don’t do multiple rounds of notes with multiple caps. It always ends badly for everyone, including the founder.

I agree. Only do this if you're desperate or if you raised a tiny angel round (> [...] a “pro-forma” cap table at the closing of the note

I agree, though more as a CYA thing to keep relationships good than something I think would be necessary if the founder set up a sane round in the first place.

I'm personally not a fan of SAFEs because they can get hairy when you have lots of angel investors, but convertible is great.

As a partial aside, this whole "strong views weakly held" (see http://avc.com/2016/06/strong-views-weakly-held/ for more details) is kinda annoying to debate with because it frequently boils down to me having to colour in the nuance. It's like a less extreme version of arguing with Trump supporters.

My style is:

Strong views strongly held, until they're no longer strong views because they've been eroded away by building, credible counter-arguments. I generally stop talking about the view during this period or when I do talk about it I'll ask questions. I think of this as weak views weakly held. Then I re-investigate the view's premises and:

1. If finding my original assessment still broadly correct, I evaulate the counter evidence and modify the view to include a greater degree of depth, since I now understand a further degree of the complexities. The view then becomes a "nuance aware-strong view, strongly held".

2. If finding my original assessment false, build a new strong view (strongly held) from the premises of others.

Strong support carries information "this information should be trusted" and I don't like broadcasting that signal if my view is weakly held.

Re: Convertible and SAFE notes

#13
This totally misses how painful it is for a first-time founder to negotiate against an experienced VC. The power of the SAFE note is that you don't need to worry about the terms, you know it's acceptable. If there are twenty different possible funding mechanisms and you have to negotiate which one you want, the power goes to the VC. Just use a SAFE note.

Re: Convertible and SAFE notes

#14
post #10

I really really dislike when VCs make a pro-investor claim and try to hide it in founder-friendly terms. Priced rounds are great for VCs because they remove all their risk. But they don't remove any founder risk. Do a down-round after a priced round and you'll wish you were just taking more dilution from a SAFE. > "1. They defer the issue of dilution until a later date". When the company is doing well, notes allow fo…

Exactly. Pissing off an angel investor because some equity goes to the founder instead of the angel is bad for a VC, because that VC needs that angel to help funnel them deals in the future. But it's good for the founder, because the founder keeps more equity.

This is a very disingenuous argument by Fred Wilson, which is a shame because his analysis is usually so intelligent. But when it comes to convincing founders to give VCs more equity, he's driven by his own incentives just like any VC.

Re: Convertible and SAFE notes

#15
post #6

It's really not that hard to understand how these notes convert and how much you are diluting if you spend just a few minutes modeling it out with https://angelcalc.com Of course it's still possible to get more dilution than expected if you raise at unrealistically high caps (or uncapped!) and convert at a lower valuation down the road, but even that is probably less painful than a conventional down round.

Yeah, I've never heard a founder regret using a SAFE because of the confusion.

Mysteriously, the only people who oppose SAFE notes are investors who would like you to instead enter a complex negotiation with them!

Re: Convertible and SAFE notes

#16

> They defer the issue of valuation and, more importantly, dilution That's what the cap if for. If the founder is 19 years old, fine, read a book on it (I recommend this: https://www.amazon.com/Funded-Entrepreneurs-Guide-Raising-Fi... but basically any will do) but angel investors that don't know what caps are are dumb angels. > They obfuscate the amount of dilution the founder(s) is taking. Also what a cap is for. U…

> The first convertible or SAFE note issued in a company should have a cap on the total amount of notes than can be issued. A number like $1mm or max $2mm sounds right to me.

By "cap" in this context, I believe he's referring to the aggregate amount of convertible notes.

Re: Convertible and SAFE notes

#17
This isn't as epic as the "extended option exercise periods screw employees! Really!" post from Scott Kupor of a16z (http://a16z.com/2016/06/23/options-timing/), but close. FFS.

The "bad case" alternative to the second/third round of notes is often a down round or running out of money -- way worse.

The "good case" alternative of a second higher cap note batch is fine.

Founders and early investors can get screwed even if they raised as equity early on, too.

Re: Convertible and SAFE notes

#18
post #7
post #4

I'm ambivalent about notes vs priced rounds for founders. I agree that they create nasty surprises at conversion time. But notes/SAFEs are great for the earliest employees since we can grant them real shares instead of options. Plus, we can do it at par value. Shares granted before a priced round are typically identical to the shares a founder has, with all the same tax advantages. Doing priced rounds early means hav…

Huh? Surely you cannot do 83b election for the employees who joined after 30 days since the company formation? And if you don't, that makes situation a lot worse for the employees, as they end up owning taxes at each vesting event.

I'd recommend https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M3UIVW3/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?... if you want to learn all the details -- it is a great reference.

The concern I think you have is that FMV of the shares might have increased after company formation? That is what 409a is for, but you generally have a decent window between reassessments, especially early on. (6mo? Is what I've seen)

83(b) clock starts when the restricted grant is issued to employee. The price is set at that time.

Re: Convertible and SAFE notes

#19
post #5

I'm not seeing what is confusing about dilution, or how that is exacerbated by multiple note rounds. Can anybody give an example along with the correct and incorrect interpretations of terms investors are prone to?

"or how that is exacerbated by multiple note rounds" - YES - I too am looking for a clear and concise example of this. The only people that have ever suggested this to us were....VCs and from my reading and rereading of all of our notes, its very unclear as to why this would be some sort of actual surprise/issue.

Re: Convertible and SAFE notes

#20
It's great when a VC makes a pro-VC argument and without any hard data cites feelings as the reason why founders should do what he says. AVC has some great ideas, but sometimes it's pure propaganda.

If you're just raising a small seed in order to get something going, what's more important than moving fast and getting the product to market?

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