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Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

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Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#41

Post by verbify »

fixxer wrote: post #28

The author: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Huemer Seems like a very nice argument when isolated away from reality. Reality of mass immigration from Muslim countries into the UK has been a lot more people in the UK support Sharia law and want to ban homosexuality. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-musl... I like libertarians, but there are some feedback loops that prevent me from univers…

That poll only surveyed areas where at least a fifth of the population was Muslim. From my experience growing up as an Orthodox Jew, areas with a higher concentration of an ethnicity also tend to harbour the more extreme views. Whether that's because extremists tend to only want to hang out together or because hanging out with only your own kind makes you more extreme is irrelevant - that poll isn't an accurate reflection Of British Muslim views or any of the British Muslims I work with.

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_570badf0e4b0fa55639d65a9

But also consider this:

a) Immigrants tend to adopt the mainstream culture over time b) By stopping people from immigrating, you're just keeping homophobia away from you, you're not preventing it existing. A gay child Of Muslim parents is better off in the UK than Pakistan even if his parents are going to continue to be homophobic. I'm not a fan OF NIMBYism.

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#43

Post by booleandilemma »

I would argue that if there was a universal human right to immigrate into the US, then US would collapse under all of the external pressure of so many people pouring in.

Let's say my neighbor has a nicer house than me, with an inground pool, cenral air, and a bowling alley in the basement. As much as I'd like to live there, and no matter the condition of my own house, I can't just move in because I feel like it.

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#44

Post by CuriouslyC »

_yosefk wrote: post #5
CuriouslyC wrote: post #2

The only legitimate authority is that which it is granted by the people over which it is exercised. Thus, a democracy is only legitimate to the extent that people choose to participate in it. By restricting migration, you effectively eliminate people's choice (at least at the national level), and what you end up with is subjugation in a pretty package.

Doesn't unrestricted immigration also eliminate the choice of some (those whose government enacts different policies with the new voters)? I don't think "choice" is how you decide these arguments. Either your choice to make noise limits my choice to sleep or vice versa. There is not always a way to limit the choice of none.

If people choose to emigrate to places based on their agreement with current policy (which you would expect if we can achieve some parity in terms of opportunity) then no.

In regards to the condition of conflicting interests, all you really have is mutual agreement among all involved parties. In this case, you agree to make less noise late at night in exchange for my agreement not to turn the neighborhood against you by telling everyone what a dick you are. Unfortunately given the dissolution of community reputation isn't the effective check it once was, and as a result we end up being both alienated and mired in bureaucracy.

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#45

Post by mozumder »

fixxer wrote: post #28

The author: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Huemer Seems like a very nice argument when isolated away from reality. Reality of mass immigration from Muslim countries into the UK has been a lot more people in the UK support Sharia law and want to ban homosexuality. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-musl... I like libertarians, but there are some feedback loops that prevent me from univers…

> Seems like a very nice argument when isolated away from reality. Reality of mass immigration from Muslim countries into the UK has been a lot more people in the UK support Sharia law and want to ban homosexuality.

We have that in the US already, with the evangelists trying to do the exact same thing - strict religious laws and anti-homosexuality. Lots of gays/transgendered people being killed in the US, as well as domestic violence causing death among people that stray away from their family. And what good are laws against murder if the government doesn't enforce it, like the current US Attorney General is doing?

But, it doesn't matter since immigration isn't designed to influence culture. The US government isn't a Cultural Government. We don't even have a national language. Pretty cool, huh?

Immigrations instead is used to maintain economic welfare, as immigrants work harder than natives and have a lower crime rate. Otherwise, you have a stagnant economy like Japan.

You have plenty of other options to control culture besides immigration. Learn how to make a TV show, or speak in public.

So, the correct answer to everything is to make sure we have an open border. Let's work to make sure that happens.

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#46

Post by exit »

phy6 wrote: post #36

Sam has stated for many years that Marvin is not allowed into his marketplace unless by written invitation. Marvin, being a citizen of his own town, can seek a marketplace in his own town, work with others to create one for himself like Sam did, or violate Sams borders knowing the consequences (as Sam has already told him what will happen). Just like standing at the bottom of the ocean will drown you, Sam has stated…

in reality, sam isn't the sole associate of "his marketplace", and sam can't form a consensus with the others there.

i flatly do not care for americans more than i care for people with other passports, and i am not willing to support any special privileges built on this notion of us being one tribe.

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#47

Post by ciaranm »

fixxer wrote: post #39
BeetleB wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Reality of mass immigration from Muslim countries into the UK has been a lot more people in the UK support Sharia law and want to ban homosexuality. Based on this: http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings... The majority of immigrants are likely non-Muslims. Only two Muslim countries appear in the top 10. Of the top 44% of immigrants, 8% are from two Muslim countries. Likely a larger percentage o…

I've been following Madeline Sumption on Twitter for a while. I think she has a political motivation and I don't consider the Migration Observatory to be a valid source. Sorry.

Everyone has political motivations. You're going to entirely discount a group that studies migration from the most esteemed university in the UK because you don't like what someone puts on their twitter feed?

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#48

Post by fixxer »

verbify wrote: post #41
fixxer wrote: post #28

The author: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Huemer Seems like a very nice argument when isolated away from reality. Reality of mass immigration from Muslim countries into the UK has been a lot more people in the UK support Sharia law and want to ban homosexuality. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-musl... I like libertarians, but there are some feedback loops that prevent me from univers…

That poll only surveyed areas where at least a fifth of the population was Muslim. From my experience growing up as an Orthodox Jew, areas with a higher concentration of an ethnicity also tend to harbour the more extreme views. Whether that's because extremists tend to only want to hang out together or because hanging out with only your own kind makes you more extreme is irrelevant - that poll isn't an accurate refle…

NIMBYism is rationalism. It is irrational to think you can/should have policies in your system to serve people from a separate system. It presumes that you can establish a metric for right and wrong that applies to others, which is really just jingoism.

Edit: wrt your 'A', there is a massive amount of things not said about how immigrants take on the values of their new country. Cato has published a few papers on that and it is always in the context of large aggregate stats dominated by immigrants from similar cultures (some might disagree, but Mexico is VERY similar to the US; Syria not so much)

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#49

Post by Banthum »

exit wrote: post #42

the most fundamental form of democracy is voting with your feet, and the passport regime has destroyed that. nationality is segregation.

No, nationality is property rights.

Voting with your feet was not significant before passports as the masses were too poor to move (which is why nobody had passport systems to begin with).

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#50

Post by fiatjaf »

fixxer wrote: post #28

The author: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Huemer Seems like a very nice argument when isolated away from reality. Reality of mass immigration from Muslim countries into the UK has been a lot more people in the UK support Sharia law and want to ban homosexuality. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-musl... I like libertarians, but there are some feedback loops that prevent me from univers…

Although the author is a libertarian, I don't think his views express what libertarians in general think about it.

Libertarians recognize property rights and that property owners should be able to prevent people from "immigrating" to their property.

In practice that could materialize in a number of different laws and costumes, depending on the culture and society.

How that should work in the context of State regulation is a problem for which libertarianism has no solution.

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