Some of them can, I remember articles of people solving problem with hard numbers and theories (bandwidth, maximum stack space, ) bridging mentally high level applicative layer and the low level one. I never saw this kind of methodology in my computer classes.
Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
91–100 of 149 posts
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#92While I don't much like software developers calling themselves engineers either, it was hard not to read this and think that about a week ago I was reading all about a dam that seemed poised to fail and thousands of people had to be evacuated; or about a miracle of engineering, a skyscraper in SF that appears to be sinking ( https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/23/us/san-francisco-millenni... or, oh, here's an entire Wiki…
Pointing out failures in engineering isn't a productive exercise. The difference is that engineers have both professional ethical obligations that they can fall back on and accountability. It is possible that the guy who stamped the sinking skyscraper will lose his license, for example. In technology, the lack of a real engineering culture is a profoundly negative thing in many ways. When your boss demands that you d…
Exactly, having the backing of a profession that expects and mandates you uphold its Code of Ethics is a very powerful thing. Refusing to do work you deem unethical is much easier when you have the support, expectation and legal obligation to do so.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#93'Engineering claims an explicit responsibility to public safety and reliability, even if it doesn’t always deliver.' -> that's exactly why some programmers NEED to be engineers. And some are indeed 'verified' engineers (the author seems to deeply care about the fact that there are some regulation behind this word), like myself and lots of my 'programmers' friends from engineering schools. And yes we also have 'programmers' or 'developers' or 'coders', to whom we need to explain engineering principles.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#94>The term is probably a shortening of “software engineer,” but its use betrays a secret: “Engineer” is an aspirational title in software development. Traditional engineers are regulated, certified, and subject to apprenticeship and continuing education. Engineering claims an explicit responsibility to public safety and reliability, even if it doesn’t always deliver. Well, at least in the UK, software engineers are up…
> “Engineer” is an aspirational title in software development
Some engineers aspire to, allow me this reserved term, 'build' software. And doing so fulfill their role as engineers, by doing it correctly. Some of this software later is used by so depicted real-hardware engineers to model their bridges before starting building them, their planes before flying in them. Would id be possible without engineers in software ?
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#95There is a title arms race happening with programmers.
If everyone is going to call themselves a Software Engineer on LinkedIn, and I decide to label myself as a Developer, or even worse, a Programmer, I'm going to miss out on opportunities that the "engineers" are going to get.
If you don't want programmers calling themselves engineers, just make it illegal for us to do so.
I know Texas and Canada already do.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#96I have mixed feeling about this. Having worked at {big defense Corps}, I knew that some extremely competent technical people were technicians.
I also discovered that back in the 60's or 70's, if you showed a spark, they'd pay for you to go to school while you worked.
Today, you can't get your foot in the door without a technical degree, AND you will be constantly dismissed even if you are right. Oh, the engineers know when a technician is right, showing initiative, and absolutely killing it - but I saw Senior Management actively disregard them, because they aren't engineers. The engineers had to say, "hey, he's right, we should all listen". This happened multiple times. It used to be at some places that every X years as a technician (I think it was 4?) was ranked as 1 year as a full engineer. Sure that's slow - but you got heard, and combined with the "bright spark" incentive above, was a great way to identify talent that didn't take the traditional channels.
I think "moving fast and breaking things" is a feel-good way to paper over incompetence and poor planning, but I've also seen the degreed set not be as competent as the technicians. I have no idea what the right answer is - except to say that industries where lives are on the line (medical devices, aerospace, etc) do have strict guidelines, responsibilities and take it very seriously - this makes me think the author is just taking a dig at people - it appears as discord without direction, to those in the field.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#97While I don't much like software developers calling themselves engineers either, it was hard not to read this and think that about a week ago I was reading all about a dam that seemed poised to fail and thousands of people had to be evacuated; or about a miracle of engineering, a skyscraper in SF that appears to be sinking ( https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/23/us/san-francisco-millenni... or, oh, here's an entire Wiki…
Pointing out failures in engineering isn't a productive exercise. The difference is that engineers have both professional ethical obligations that they can fall back on and accountability. It is possible that the guy who stamped the sinking skyscraper will lose his license, for example. In technology, the lack of a real engineering culture is a profoundly negative thing in many ways. When your boss demands that you d…
Except, you know, there's the law I could refer to.
Or like two months ago when the guy who hired me wanted me to ship software that was clearly going to explode in production and I told him that I'm not interested in having that kind of disaster on my conscience and that he would just have to deal with the fact that its going to take longer to ship.
Saying no is about having a spine, not about being able to hide behind something that you can hold against your employer. Maybe they're right. If you are incapable of making decisions in a professional fashion, you should not call yourself an engineer.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#98The term "engineer" is regulated in Canada, and only Professional Engineers (PE) awarded a licence by their provincial regulatory body can call themselves as such. Someone who graduates with an engineering degree is usually called an Engineer in Training (EIT), until they become a PE. The reason we regulate a specific word for our profession is because of our relationship with the public, and the ethical and safety p…
> The intention is, that when someone calls them self an engineer, you can have confidence in both their technical ability and moral obligations. I thought the intention was that, even if someone didn't have confidence in both their technical ability and moral obligations, it didn't matter. An engineer is a person whose technical decisions are literally protected by law - if they decide to not sign off on something,…
I'm not sure that I fully understand your comment, but what I mean to say is that the intent of regulating the specific word is so that everyone has the same understanding of what using that word entails, when applying it to the profession of engineering. What you say about an engineer's decisions being legally bound are true, but that helps provide confidence in the work engineers do, but isn't the reason for regulating a specific word. I feel like I might be missing something in your comment though, sorry if this doesn't address what you were getting at.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.
Software Engineering is recognized as Engineering both by IEEE and by Professional Engineers of Ontario (or other provinces) who are members of Engineers Canada. Certification does exist....it's not widely used or accepted because in most cases, companies want developers not engineers. To add to it, the only thing stopping Software Engineers from becoming members of the above mentioned organizations is a code of ethi…
"Engineer" is a protected title in Canada (like "Lawyer" or "Doctor", although not as strictly enforced). You can't use it unless you're a member of your province's professional engineer organization.
It's incorrect to say an engineer can "become" a member of one of these organizations, because you're not legally an engineer until you are a certified member.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#100I have a degree that says I'm an engineer, so I'll call myself an engineer thank you very much.
I have a degree that says I'm an scientists, do I have to call myself a Software Scientist now? :D
No, but you can call yourself Data Scientist, I hear they make big bucks what with the big data and analysis and stuff.