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Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

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Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#11
post #6

Only when one believes in "God given rights" or similar, that exist independently of man-made laws and customs. Otherwise, what's a right is what people define as one. Here's a related question: is the will of a collection of people A (e.g. "no immigration to our parts") more or less important than the will of other people to immigrate there? And two PS notes, as most people will focus on the wrong aspects of the que…

The right to determine immigration policy is a sovereign power, in the US it is granted by law to the executive branch (subject of course to many other natural and national laws.)

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#13
post #8

The State is illegitimate. It is up to the rightful landowners to allow whoever they want on their premises.

For that to be true, the landowners must depose the government, and give up the protections and benefits afforded them. There is an exchange of natural rights for the protections and benefits of belonging to a nation.

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#15

The only legitimate authority is that which it is granted by the people over which it is exercised. Thus, a democracy is only legitimate to the extent that people choose to participate in it. By restricting migration, you effectively eliminate people's choice (at least at the national level), and what you end up with is subjugation in a pretty package.

This doesn't make any sense.

"A democracy is only legitimate to the extent that people choose to participate in it" is correct, but only applies to the people within the bounds of the democratic state -- those upon which the effects of the democratic decisions will be applied to. Not to arbitrarily anyone.

So refusing the vote to blacks or women etc, within a state is undemocratic, refusing the entry to the state (and thus the vote) to those outside is another thing altogether.

Let's conduct a thought experiment. Given totally free entry and vote to the USA, what's to stop, say, 400 million devout muslims from migrating there, and voting at the very first elections they can vote in, for islamic law (or gradually introducing it)? That's, after all, the will of the (new) 400+350 million strong people.

You could substitute muslims for any other group. Or you could do the reverse experiment, migrating 100 millions americans to a muslim country of, say, 50-70 million people, and having the vote to change the laws and customs to americanized preferences of living.

It's only because a lot of people in the US think that how the US lives and operates is some kind of universal law or ultimate preference of mankind (forgetting that there are two fractions even in the us itself) that they cannot see the possibility of such experiments/distortions.

Meanwhile, people in places like Lebanon, that had these things painfully happen to them, are much more aware of the diversity of what people will.

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#16

The only legitimate authority is that which it is granted by the people over which it is exercised. Thus, a democracy is only legitimate to the extent that people choose to participate in it. By restricting migration, you effectively eliminate people's choice (at least at the national level), and what you end up with is subjugation in a pretty package.

Do you mean immigration, or emigration? A person can choose to leave, if at least one of the 180-someodd other countries in the world will take them. Or they can go to unoccupied land, which is admittedly in very short supply (Antarctica, Bir Tawil).

I believe you can also go to Svalbard if you do so without passing through another nation on the way which would restrict your passage.

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#17
post #8

The State is illegitimate. It is up to the rightful landowners to allow whoever they want on their premises.

First, if the state is illegitimate, then there are no landowners.

You are a landowner only in as much as the state guarantees your right to the land, or (the only other alternative) as much as you can protect and enforce your rights to your land.

So, without a state, some big bullies with access to better guns will have you for breakfast.

Besides, who gave you this "right" to the land in the first place? Only a series of contracts, and before it all, stealing it from the Native Americans, who got there first (in as much as we can recognize "getting there first" as a legitimate right to a piece of land).

Second, even if it "is up to the rightful landowners to allow whoever they want on their premises", that doesn't extend to outside their premises.

So, either those immigrants you accepted in would have to live only on your premises, or you have to negotiate with the other landowners to have the immigrants be able to walk around their land, define some common areas which no one has exclusive rights to, etc. And this collective agreement, which you'll also need some way to enforce it, is exactly a primitive form of govermnet as well.

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#18

The United States has plenty of moral responsibility to accept immigrants from countries in Central America after spending billions screwing them up with dirty secret wars in the 70s and 80s.

Does Japan have the moral responsibility to accept Chinese immigrants after the atrocities committed in WW2?

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#19
The author, in my view, appears to be making 2 logical fallacies (that, therefore, invalidate the argument) summarized here

"... A prima facie rights violation is an action of a sort that normally—that is, barring any special circumstances—violates someone’s rights. For example, killing a human being is a prima facie rights violation: in normal circumstances, to kill someone is to violate his rights. ...."

Fallacy one, is that killing a person is an binary, killed or not. It is not equivalent to a country establishing suverenity over its territory, borders, and laws. And denying a right to immigrate into a particular list of first world countries, is not equivalent to killing.

Fallacy two, is that the author oversimplifies.

First it is postulated, that immigration is a right. However, it is not the case. Every right granted within a sovereign country does not necessarily extend beyond its borders. Eg 2nd amendment right in US does not extend to Russia. Same can be said about abortions right grants -- these are not applicable at 'global level'. So lack of examining significantly complex analogies, is a simplification fallacy.

Second example of oversimplification fallacy, is that there are many more variables (rights, privileges, letter of law, reasons to enforce laws, etc) than just "US government" vs "an immigrant".

Re: Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010)

#20

No. A nation may place whatever restriction they like on foreigners entering. This has been a right of nations since the beginning of recorded history.

That just sidesteps the interesting part of the question.

It's been repeatedly demonstrated throughout history that nations do not exist by right, they exist by might.

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