Margaret Hamilton was a software engineer. Read up on the processes she and her team used to build the Apollo computer software and you'll realize, there really is a higher standard that software engineers could be held to.
Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
81–90 of 149 posts
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#82There's actually a potentially good article in here, about how the software development community is failing to uphold its obligations to the public interest. Unfortunately it's struggling to escape from yet another entry in the tedious genre of "software engineer (sorry, programmer) who has never worked in, or even read a book about, any other engineering discipline assuming that he knows everything about how they w…
The problem with all of these arguments is that everyone is right.
You can absolutely treat software development as a manufacturing process. It is sure as hell not appropriate for many situations, but is possible.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.
Software Engineering is recognized as Engineering both by IEEE and by Professional Engineers of Ontario (or other provinces) who are members of Engineers Canada. Certification does exist....it's not widely used or accepted because in most cases, companies want developers not engineers. To add to it, the only thing stopping Software Engineers from becoming members of the above mentioned organizations is a code of ethi…
> Certification does exist....it's not widely used or accepted
That's an understatement. Was speaking to a fellow engineer recently, and he claimed that there are really only two licensed software engineers in all of Toronto. We probably have tens of thousands of software developers.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#84I call myself a Software Engineer specifically because I see it as different to being a programmer. I don't just write code, I try to solve problems in a rigorous and maintainable way, while being aware of the wider implications of my work to the business, our customers, and anyone else who might be affected by it. Sure we don't have the same regulation as civil engineers, but I try to do my work in the same spirit.…
We cannot retrofit these qualifications onto what have always been arbitrary titles, just because it sounds plausible. Imagine you are reading a candidate's resume. At one past job they were called "Software Engineer" and at another they were called "Software Developer". Nobody would presume to say to the candidate, "So, I see you did rigorous development with proper quality controls and metrics at Company A, but you did move-fast-break-things development at Company B?" You can't infer that from the job title, because the title is just whatever each company feels like calling programmers.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#85After I read this article I was quite upset, but really I wasn't angry as I was as much hurt. I actually don't like to call myself an engineer. I don't like the title, because I don't think it represents how I work and what I do. I don't follow a strict rigorous process, my job allows me to be free and agile (no pun intended) which is quite different from building engineers, mechanical engineers etc.
Where I live developers, programmers, etc. have never had the prestige that other science like professions have had. Most of the time when you talk about what you do, it's often a look of either confusion, or ambivalence because "Excel is on a computer, so programming can't be much different." A lot of companies belittle programmers, because "everyone can learn to program." Programming is hard, and this isn't to insult other professions. A lot of them are hard too. It's just that a lot of developers want to be respected for what they do just like everyone else and that's normally missing. This article, although in my opinion correct about not calling developers engineers, seems to ignore that what developers do is highly technical and quite complicated. Developers saying they're engineers puts that force of science and process behind it, and it's a defense from someone equating their basic class in HTML to mentally tracing how a request is going to trace through 100 servers in different regions.
Personally, I don't want to be restricted to being an engineer. I love the freedom to rapidly alter how I work, and most of what I work on will not cause harm to others. I am sure I speak for all developers, and what everyone really wants is to be counted among the other people who have challenging professions and respected for what is accomplished.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#86ITT: a bunch of people without engineering degrees calling this engineering.
Programming has far more in common with a trade than a profession. Just the process software is developed under should make that very obvious.
Software developers are more like electricians than like electrical engineers.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#87Oh give me a break. People who build things (whether in the physical world or not) are engineers. Anyone who has worked at a serious software company knows it's an engineering profession. A more constructive approach would be to say "hey, here are some things engineers have learned over the years; perhaps some of them would be useful to those who build software for a living?"
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#88If mechanical engineers were unregulated and built unreliable cars, they would still be mechanical engineers. If doctors weren't a licensed profession, they would still be doctors. If barbers didn't need a certification, they would still be barbers. Defining an "engineer" based on how much regulation they must follow is kind of ridiculous. It's putting the cart before the horse. Which is not to say that the software…
I disagree. Titles exist to provide an assurance to people that the services they get from title-holders will be above a certain standard, with the threat of a serious penalty if the work is sloppy. This is the social expectation in many societies. If I find that a doctor doesn't sterilize needles or wash hands, they should face a penalty (regardless of whether it actually caused damage). We shouldn't have to specify…
I think we actually agree on the need for regulation. I just don't think being subject to regulation is necessary to be considered an "engineer".
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#89The term "engineer" is regulated in Canada, and only Professional Engineers (PE) awarded a licence by their provincial regulatory body can call themselves as such. Someone who graduates with an engineering degree is usually called an Engineer in Training (EIT), until they become a PE. The reason we regulate a specific word for our profession is because of our relationship with the public, and the ethical and safety promises engineers are regulated to commit to the them. The average person does not have the technical background to judge the proficiency of an engineer, so they must trust in their abilities and morals. In Canada, engineering is a self regulated profession designed to uphold high technical and ethical standards so that we can maintain that trust society gives us. The intention is, that when someone calls them self an engineer, you can have confidence in both their technical ability and moral obligations. To be effective, the standards of the term and definition of who can and can't use it needs to be regulated.
That being said, I normally refer to myself as a chemical engineer (not a chemical EIT). I think the distinction needs to be made when you're interacting with someone that you are offering your engineering services to. For example, when at work I would always sign my emails indicating that I was an EIT.
Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)
#90The term "engineer" is regulated in Canada, and only Professional Engineers (PE) awarded a licence by their provincial regulatory body can call themselves as such. Someone who graduates with an engineering degree is usually called an Engineer in Training (EIT), until they become a PE. The reason we regulate a specific word for our profession is because of our relationship with the public, and the ethical and safety p…
> The intention is, that when someone calls them self an engineer, you can have confidence in both their technical ability and moral obligations.
I thought the intention was that, even if someone didn't have confidence in both their technical ability and moral obligations, it didn't matter. An engineer is a person whose technical decisions are literally protected by law - if they decide to not sign off on something, they don't have to convince anyone and can't face consequences for it (ahem, Quebec bridge[1]). What you're suggesting is just a byproduct of confidence in the system.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Bridge - Search for 'iron ring'