Live data from Hacker News

Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

theatlantic.com

71–80 of 149 posts

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#71
post #46

"Software Engineer" is a title. It is not, and never was, a type of engineer. It is exactly the same as "Software Architect" in this regard, which is not a kind of architect. If a developer says "I am an engineer" it is only ever in the context of a tech company, where everybody knows what they mean. No programmer would say to their friends & family "I am an engineer" without any further context. "Software Engineer"…

Right, my current title is "solutions architect" which has no meaning outside of the context of software. If someone, non-IT asks me, I'm a software developer.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#72
There's actually a potentially good article in here, about how the software development community is failing to uphold its obligations to the public interest.

Unfortunately it's struggling to escape from yet another entry in the tedious genre of "software engineer (sorry, programmer) who has never worked in, or even read a book about, any other engineering discipline assuming that he knows everything about how they work".

It's ironic that he cites the failure of the NATO "Software Engineering" conferences as evidence that software development is not engineering, when the idea of those conferences was that "programmers" would be the assembly-line workers in a software manufacturing process.

Software development is a design process, not a manufacturing process. That's why we call its practitioners software engineers:

http://www.zerobanana.com/essays/reclaiming-software-enginee...

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#74
post #30

I call myself a Software Engineer specifically because I see it as different to being a programmer. I don't just write code, I try to solve problems in a rigorous and maintainable way, while being aware of the wider implications of my work to the business, our customers, and anyone else who might be affected by it. Sure we don't have the same regulation as civil engineers, but I try to do my work in the same spirit.…

This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.

Software Engineering is recognized as Engineering both by IEEE and by Professional Engineers of Ontario (or other provinces) who are members of Engineers Canada.

Certification does exist....it's not widely used or accepted because in most cases, companies want developers not engineers.

To add to it, the only thing stopping Software Engineers from becoming members of the above mentioned organizations is a code of ethics (and experience) - not knowledge or know-how.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#75

I recently visited Berlin to research about the German Freelance Visa [1] after being rejected by multiple local startups that were looking for Software Engineers with +3 years of work experience. I asked for feedback to one of them and was told that I should not consider myself an "engineer" because I don't have an university degree in the field, even with +9 years of work experience. I asked more people about the t…

From what I can tell, the main difference in the US is that most states have a so called "industrial exemption" which waives the license requirement for engineers who work for employers under certain conditions. Depending on one's field, (e.g., electrical and mechanical), most engineers are unlicensed.

Also, the law in my state is less concerned with the specific title, than about what people actually do. In general, professions that could affect public safety are regulated. That includes haircutting, K-12 teaching, and engineering.

Still, similar to what people do in Germany, my friends who have their own businesses, but are unlicensed, choose vague business names that avoid the words "engineering" or "design." My LLC is "technology."

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#77
post #8

While I don't much like software developers calling themselves engineers either, it was hard not to read this and think that about a week ago I was reading all about a dam that seemed poised to fail and thousands of people had to be evacuated; or about a miracle of engineering, a skyscraper in SF that appears to be sinking ( https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/23/us/san-francisco-millenni... or, oh, here's an entire Wiki…

Pointing out failures in engineering isn't a productive exercise.

The difference is that engineers have both professional ethical obligations that they can fall back on and accountability. It is possible that the guy who stamped the sinking skyscraper will lose his license, for example.

In technology, the lack of a real engineering culture is a profoundly negative thing in many ways. When your boss demands that you do something clearly unethical, you have no backdrop as a professional to say "I cannot do this". Engineers, attorneys and CPAs have that.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#78
post #37
post #8

While I don't much like software developers calling themselves engineers either, it was hard not to read this and think that about a week ago I was reading all about a dam that seemed poised to fail and thousands of people had to be evacuated; or about a miracle of engineering, a skyscraper in SF that appears to be sinking ( https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/23/us/san-francisco-millenni... or, oh, here's an entire Wiki…

>I don't think anyone died as a result of a lack of proper collaboration and regulation in software development. Come work in healthcare, you may change your mind. In healthcare, a lack of domain expertise, rigor, collaboration, and regulation kills people every day. And inhibits our science. And is the root cause of billions a week in waste. Yes, most web content and it's delivery we could do well, or be better off,…

When I worked in healthcare, every piece of software that interacted with a human in a healthcare related situation was extensively regulated. There was an enormous amount of documentation, change control, effort to change things (for example, updating the firmware was considered a major change to the system and had to be documented in detail).

Are you talking about research, rather than healthcare?

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#79
post #59

This article feels painfully misinformed. I am a brother of Theta Tau, the professional engineering fraternity. Many of my brothers are certified professional engineers (FE, PE, etc.) I graduated with a dual-major in CS/Math. I strongly disagree with this assertion that failures in tech make us undeserving of the moniker 'engineer'. Software systems are inherently complex, and we have built incredible testing tools,…

> Additionally, the tech industry, in my opinion, innovates at a significantly faster pace than the licensed engineering disciplines. Perhaps these are correlated in some way. I think you're right. Regulation stifles innovation. Even in a narrow sense, thinking software alone, everyone knows the saying "Standard library is where modules go to die", meaning that there are stricter requirements to make it to the standa…

Its not just regulation. We're not getting rid of Eulers critical column load equation because of neophilia whereas in software if its over two years old it must be scrapped as obsolete and no longer trendy.

Engineering is very predictable because of the enormous amount of procedure. It takes precisely X labor hours for an engineer to analyze a house roof blueprint and specify a scalable system of installing anything from 1 panel to covering the entire roof with solar panels that will survive local wind and snow loads with essentially 100% survivability yet also being minimal cost. Its just incredibly predictive.

On the other hand a lot of software development is throw something brand new at the wall see if it sticks, if it does, great, scale till it doesn't, if it does not then its not your fault because its new and nobody can predict nothing in software development. Will it take 3 months or 4 months to write that app, who knows, unpredictable.

No large body of "human life trustworthy" predictable process has developed... yet... for software except in the simplest cases.

It doesn't help that due to moore's transistor law times were changing fast such that what would have required a miracle and some scientific breakthrus in the 70s is now the structural engineering equivalent of some carpenter building a doghouse, its so small that overbuilding doesn't matter and theres no human lives at stake so hiring a structural engineer for hours to calculate the rafter geometry and size for a doghouse is a waste of time and money, leading ignorant people to think solid engineering principles are in opposition to profit for ALL software development, which is a bit of a mistake.

And leading to a desire for software engineering to exist, although there is no academic teachable scalable hyper-predictable mathematically provable process for software development like there is for circuit analysis or structural beam design or chemical process kinetics for scaling so desiring "truely engineering like software dev" is like wishing for magic to be true, sure would be convenient if it existed, but since it doesn't, the people who claim to be engineers are kinda like people who claim to be alchemists, best hold on to your hat.

With a side dish of "engineer" being a modern term of nobility only granted by certain authorities and extremely jealously legally guarded.

And a side dish of hiring people who know nothing about computers or engineering think engineer sounds impressive, so its required on resumes, just like "rock star" or "guru" or "ninja".

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#80
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.

> This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed. Software is going to be regulated, licensed, and unionized within the next ten years. The main reason it's not currently is because the best practices have historically changed every couple years due to Moore's Law, but there is about to be an extended slowdown that will give the industry the time it needs to get its act together.

There is a constant: people using memory-unsafe languages, and then collective shrugging after the same things have happened over and over. Cloudbleed? Old news by now...
Post reply on HN