Employees who decline genetic testing could face penalties under proposed bill • Hacker News Board

Re: Employees who decline genetic testing could face penalties under proposed bill

#61

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:18 AM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #46

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, my question still stands. I'm asking because I frequently see this kind of climate change alarmism on forums (it's the end of civilization, billions will die, etc) but my sense from an admittedly cursory reading of the estimates is that the dangers of climate change are likely to be an epic refugee crisis from coastal flooding, famine, and war. Hundreds of millions will die, and many more will see a sub…

I also don't think that global warming will end civilization for the same reasons as you. However, a refuge crisis, wars over food and water and hundreds of millions dead will be a heavy blow that might set us back for a long time. There is little money for colonizing Mars when you have to spend it all for killing revolutionaries.

Agreed. This is not an argument for not taking climate change seriously and doing all we reasonably can.

Re: Employees who decline genetic testing could face penalties under proposed bill

#62

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:22 AM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #45

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, my question still stands. I'm asking because I frequently see this kind of climate change alarmism on forums (it's the end of civilization, billions will die, etc) but my sense from an admittedly cursory reading of the estimates is that the dangers of climate change are likely to be an epic refugee crisis from coastal flooding, famine, and war. Hundreds of millions will die, and many more will see a sub…

I would just say in response to your post: the start of Syria's troubles are considered by some to begin with an unseasonable and sustained drought. That's one country's population sudden injection into the rich Western world you consider to be facing limited fallout, and we've witnessed the results and the reactions. I don't think most people can picture the real effects of sustained and mass migration, even if you'…

I agree, but look at the backlash in Europe and the US. Does it seem likely that a 10x increase in the turmoil that caused Syria will result in more migrants and refugees to western countries? I highly doubt it.

Unfortunately, I think it highly likely that rich western democracies will turn their backs on developing nations and their tens of millions of refugees. North America, Japan, Australia, and NZ are particularly well suited for this geographically, but Europe will isolate itself as much as possible as well.

Re: Employees who decline genetic testing could face penalties under proposed bill

#63

Post by int_19h » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:23 AM UTC

wyager wrote: post #33

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The specifics of the American healthcare system aside, what leads you to believe that the problem is regulation? By essentially any metric, state provided (single-payer) healthcare is the best-known solution to the healthcare problem. Why is there any reason to believe that there's too much state intervention as opposed to, say, too little?

> By essentially any metric, state provided (single-payer) healthcare is the best-known solution to the healthcare problem. Except things like, you know, quality of care or satisfaction. Single-payer healthcare beats the American implementation, which is not a high bar to clear. There's a reason medical tourism to Mexico and India is so prevalent. Totally deregulated private doctors seem to kick the ass of state heal…

> There's a reason medical tourism to Mexico and India is so prevalent

Yes, and it's because labor is cheaper in these countries than in yours, because their standard of living is lower, and therefore living costs are cheaper.

So it's cheaper for you, because you come from a country with a higher standard of living, and your income is much higher than average in those countries. So for you, their prices are cheap. But for the locals, they're definitely not cheap.

If you switch to a completely private system in US, those doctors will want to be paid US wages, not Mexican or Indian wages. And then you'll find the cost of their services much less affordable.

> For certain kinds of medicine, people will even make medical visits to the US from socialized countries like Canada or France.

There was an actual study on Canadians coming to US for healthcare. The scope of it is vastly overblown, and the reasons are very different from what people often assume they are.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/21/3/19.full.html

Re: Employees who decline genetic testing could face penalties under proposed bill

#64

Post by jdormit » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:25 AM UTC

goombastic wrote: post #29

The thing with emotionally polarizing bills such as this is that politicians manage to put in other clauses and items we tend to overlook while participating in the battle. We win the issue but we don't notice other things they might have slid in. What an age we live in, cant trust our own representatives. Time to bring back the threat of lynching as a deterrent.

> Time to bring back the threat of lynching as a deterrent.

...please tell me this is a joke

Re: Employees who decline genetic testing could face penalties under proposed bill

#65

Post by int_19h » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:26 AM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #45

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, my question still stands. I'm asking because I frequently see this kind of climate change alarmism on forums (it's the end of civilization, billions will die, etc) but my sense from an admittedly cursory reading of the estimates is that the dangers of climate change are likely to be an epic refugee crisis from coastal flooding, famine, and war. Hundreds of millions will die, and many more will see a sub…

I would just say in response to your post: the start of Syria's troubles are considered by some to begin with an unseasonable and sustained drought. That's one country's population sudden injection into the rich Western world you consider to be facing limited fallout, and we've witnessed the results and the reactions. I don't think most people can picture the real effects of sustained and mass migration, even if you'…

The ability to isolate yourself comes with its own costs. Turning away refugees is one thing; but what happens when people are sufficiently desperate that they will be willing to take up arms to secure a place under the sun for themselves and their kin?

Re: Employees who decline genetic testing could face penalties under proposed bill

#66

Post by moonshinefe » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:30 AM UTC

This article is very scant on details and seems to muddy the waters by comparing things like cholesterol and smoking to genetic screening which doesn't seem to help things.

If how they've framed it is true however, and this may become law, that's the final nail in the coffin for the GOP isn't it? What an absolutely nasty piece of legislation. I feel like the GOP got so much power since it's the usual "sick of the last 8 years" thing--but I think that may reverse fast if laws such as this start hitting people.

Then again, I've unfortunately overestimated the US voters in the past. Please don't let it happen.

Re: Employees who decline genetic testing could face penalties under proposed bill

#67

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:34 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #58

lisper wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a reason medical tourism to Mexico and India is so prevalent. Yes: health care in Mexico and India is cheaper. Not better. Cheaper. > I wouldn't want to get, say, complicated brain surgery in Mexico. I rest my case.

I personally find Indian capitalistic medical care equivalent to the US. Under most circumstances (i.e., I don't need a super specialist who happens to be located elsewhere) I'll always choose to have work done here in India. I've made this choice before and never regretted it. You can read about a description of my spine surgery if you like: https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2015/medical_tourism.html Similarly, I m…

> I personally find Indian capitalistic medical care equivalent to the US

Having had multiple friends and relatives get treated for identical diseases and/or undergo identical treatments between the United States and India, I respectfully disagree. Survival, technology, training and quality of care are undoubtedly higher in America.

Re: Employees who decline genetic testing could face penalties under proposed bill

#68

Post by M_Grey » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:36 AM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #52

M_Grey wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what traits we'll program for? Intelligence, maybe, but that's tough to manage and I'd guess that without a complete understanding you'd get a lot of madness. Physical traits will be easier to select for, especially gross ones like size and overall strength. Selecting out congenital illness would be another step. If you could though, if you had a clear understanding of how Trait A and cluster of genes/epigen…

Health, physical attractiveness and intelligence are the obvious ones. We already know many genes that are associated with cancer and other illnesses, so screening for those and discarding embryos could already be done with today's technology. I suspect eye, hair and skin color aren't very difficult either. Seeing how popular skin bleaching products are I could see many parents paying money for lighter offspring. Int…

...But physical attractiveness has some serious variability, even within culture. I agree though, that some things like lighter skin in many parts of the world would be a likely big seller.

Re: Employees who decline genetic testing could face penalties under proposed bill

#69

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:37 AM UTC

goombastic wrote: post #29

The thing with emotionally polarizing bills such as this is that politicians manage to put in other clauses and items we tend to overlook while participating in the battle. We win the issue but we don't notice other things they might have slid in. What an age we live in, cant trust our own representatives. Time to bring back the threat of lynching as a deterrent.

> Time to bring back the threat of lynching as a deterrent

Please don't do this here.

Re: Employees who decline genetic testing could face penalties under proposed bill

#70

Post by M_Grey » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:38 AM UTC

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #62

wavefunction wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would just say in response to your post: the start of Syria's troubles are considered by some to begin with an unseasonable and sustained drought. That's one country's population sudden injection into the rich Western world you consider to be facing limited fallout, and we've witnessed the results and the reactions. I don't think most people can picture the real effects of sustained and mass migration, even if you'…

I agree, but look at the backlash in Europe and the US. Does it seem likely that a 10x increase in the turmoil that caused Syria will result in more migrants and refugees to western countries? I highly doubt it. Unfortunately, I think it highly likely that rich western democracies will turn their backs on developing nations and their tens of millions of refugees. North America, Japan, Australia, and NZ are particular…

I think you're going to find that as huge parts of Africa and the Middle East cease to be capable of supporting the large number of people who live there, you will see migration like never before. You think people fleeing from absolute misery are going to care that their welcome will be less than warm?

For now it's a relative trickle, but given time and a lack of care and you'll see floods. As you say, look at the backlash... imagine what a 10x or 100x backlash will look like. Now remember that we all have nuclear weapons on a hair trigger.