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Can sleep deprivation cure depression?

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Re: Can sleep deprivation cure depression?

#151
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mind me asking what age you are? >last December I became a morning person using early morning light and exercise // Where do you live that gets light on December mornings?

I recently bought a Philips HF3520. I've read great things about it but unfortunately I'm too heavy of a sleeper that it doesn't work for me. Give it a shot, it's definitely worth it in the long run if it works for you.

I have trouble getting up and I'm considering one of these. Does it make any noise while plugged in? I have sensitive hearing and find for example a lot of modern LED lamps have annoying buzzing associated with them due to poor quality transformers. If I'm sleeping with this thing next to me it has to be absolutely silent.

Re: Can sleep deprivation cure depression?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clocks should be a means to measure time, not manipulate when people do things.

But think of the chaos if every person and business had to implement their own alternative to DST. Every business would change it's hours on a different date, and many wouldn't change their hours at all. Everyone would have to completely change their routines ad hocly. It's nice to have a single standard, and only have to change the clock. If it helps, don't think of clock as a measure of the sun. Think of it as a me…

Unless you get up at 3AM, noon isn't the middle of your day.

Re: Can sleep deprivation cure depression?

#154

> Most people’s natural cycle is somewhat longer than the 24-hour solar day, which means that, left to our own devices, we would get quickly get out of sync with the external world. I've always had very bad issues sleeping and waking "on time." In school this led to me regularly missing class and eventually dropping school entirely, and with regular work schedules I hardly ever got good sleep. A little while ago, I m…

With your sleep schedule constantly shifting, how do you manage day-to-day activities? You must have a job with very flexible hours for that to work. But even things like going to the store and seeing a doctor must be slightly more difficult if you might be asleep from morning to afternoon. With 9 months of data, how consistently do you shift your schedule by 1 hour each day? I'd imagine there are fluctuations, but I…

I keep my own work hours and schedule my work around deadlines. If I have a deliverable Friday afternoon and I'm going to sleep in the morning, I have to get it done Thursday night. The beauty of this for me is that I know what my productive hours will be and I can work during them, rather than shoving work into a specific time frame regardless of my circumstances.

Things like going to the store I can do any time of day, pretty much. With things like doctor visits or work meetings that happen in the daytime, I'll stay up late or get up early as necessary. I can usually get back "on schedule" very easily just by going to sleep when I feel tired and getting up when I'm rested. I'll usually go to bed and get up close to when I usually do because of where my circadian rhythm is, and even if my schedule moves a few hours one way or another, that doesn't have a detrimental effect because I'm so used to the lifestyle.

It's pretty consistent. I used to track it on a sleep app but I've gotten out of the habit (it's not been necessary). I don't think there's been a month recently where I haven't completed a full rotation. Back when I was tracking data, I have graphs of my sleep schedule making a diagonal pattern across the month. It's very reliable.

Re: Can sleep deprivation cure depression?

#155

My experience is sleep deprivation increases depression

For me as well. Sometimes I go through periods where I stay up too late, and I almost always end up feeling depressed after a few days of it.

Seems like the "cure" comes when you get the sleep deprivation from waking up early, not staying up late. Well it's a little more complicated since they start with a day of total deprivation, but the days after are focused on waking up early. Something I might try.

Re: Can sleep deprivation cure depression?

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clocks should be a means to measure time, not manipulate when people do things.

But think of the chaos if every person and business had to implement their own alternative to DST. Every business would change it's hours on a different date, and many wouldn't change their hours at all. Everyone would have to completely change their routines ad hocly. It's nice to have a single standard, and only have to change the clock. If it helps, don't think of clock as a measure of the sun. Think of it as a me…

Why would anyone want to implement their own DST? Why would anyone need to trick themselves by changing their clocks when they can just decide to get up at a different time?

And what was going on before DST was invented? Chaos?

And where people ignore this idea? Is it chaos there?

Re: Can sleep deprivation cure depression?

#157
post #144

> Most people’s natural cycle is somewhat longer than the 24-hour solar day, which means that, left to our own devices, we would get quickly get out of sync with the external world. I've always had very bad issues sleeping and waking "on time." In school this led to me regularly missing class and eventually dropping school entirely, and with regular work schedules I hardly ever got good sleep. A little while ago, I m…

How much natural sunlight are you getting vs. artificial lighting? Maybe you have some problem with the mechanism that resets us to the solar day or maybe you are disrupting it in some way. Like you suggest it's possible that the light from your monitor is also messing with your body. My sleep pattern when I'm in nature with no artificial light is very different than at home with lights + screens. In nature I wake up…

I do not get much natural sunlight. I sleep beside a window with no curtains, and which faces the rising sun. Despite this, I'm able to go to sleep when I should pretty consistently.

I've tried to keep myself on a regular daytime schedule using sunlight but I found myself unable to go to bed and get up at regular times. Even with less natural sunlight, I'm consistently more rested and alert now than when I got sunlight. Even taking melatonin at night and setting numerous alarms, it was a constant, taxing struggle.

When I'm up nights I'll leave the lights on in my room to help regulate and to help me feel awake. I'm also very very consistent with my caffeine intake (same amount every day, at the same time relative to when I wake and sleep).

Regarding jetlag, I haven't traveled recently or had such drastic changes of schedule that would interrupt my circadian rhythm enough to be of any detriment.

Re: Can sleep deprivation cure depression?

#158
post #93
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also did some reading about vitamins last year and ended up taking vitamin d for a while, then magnesium for a while. My method wasn't any more scientific than that, but the vitamin D had no noticeable effect, while the effect of magnesium was dramatic. I was suffering from mood swings, poor concentration and low energy serious enough that I was considering seeing a psychologist about depression. Magnesium seems to…

If you have a disease such as depression, make a list of conditions that can cause it. For depression, vitamin deficiencies would be on the list (but also things like hormone imbalances, and many other conditions). Bring this list to your doc and let them add probabilities to each condition. Now work your way down the list, and get the blood work done. In any case, make sure your doc presents upfront an analytical ap…

as someone who has suffered from acute and chronic* depression, i do want ask, is disease the correct noun?

by "acute and chronic" relating to my experience, I intend this to mean long term and severe, but also "narrow basis" and severe and recurring. I know I am overloading a operator somewhere here... [ inline footnote for reading meter]

If cancer is many kinds, it is a a disease in the sense that it is systemic, and can be cured, in theory, by medicine.*

In the similar way, depression is a very wide and complex range of similar things, but the systemic nature is less definable, we only have systemic symptoms, do we not? I mean is my supposition accurate medically?

By systemic I mean depression is a malfunction of systems, interacting, that we can define as alien,unwanted, interactions of our body and brain chemistry (for surely depression can affect the entire being, and so we find things like magnesium, or sunlight or better diet help, if not resolve)

But the conditions which can cause my depression, are emotional or circumstantial even, very much more than environmental or physical health.

(I learned this after too many years had passed, I was made to be unaware, unpleasantly made to be unaware, of a infant trauma i endured amazingly well, but which sank triggers deep into my psyche)

Luckily - if by luckily you understand at enormous human cost* - I got through most of my younger years without resort to clinical medical intervention, such as by medication regimes, and I curl up in a fetal ball every time I hear even reference to another lamentable saga of medication experimentation (by the doctors, not patients) endured along the way to a viable life, so common among programmers.

My question whether "disease" is first of all the appropriate word to describe depression, must come with a sister question: if disease is not a universally sound description of depression, is it so in some cases, even edge cases, and if we have stretched the definition, is there a underlying argument for why we stretched the definition, other than those afflicted so often feel accursed and afflicted as if by terminal disease?

It seems to me, that because depression is a vital and axial point of interaction between brain, mind systems (reflexive brain body interfaces, e.g. exercise benefits almost always functioning) and body, is therefore a better taxonomy not necessary?

The best description I ever heard, of the DSM, is that with only the effort of observation and tedious reference, you could probably diagnose any child with all the pediatric diagnoses therein contained. Whether strictly true or not, and I wish I could recall to whom that quip is attributable, but a Psychiatric doctor 5 , that certainly ought to strike home with anyone old enough ever to have had the pangs of wanting a family.

I suggest that the computing community, is uniquely positioned, to develop a better and more innately intelligent, taxonomy, of psychiatric "disease" (if it must be so called) and that it might be right to "reclaim" a important but seriously, gravely, and frequently abused "discipline" from a profession almost a industry of commercial practitioners.

* years and years after i learned what "survival rate" for cancer really means, I am still aghast that such a blatant semantic spin could be applied to something s incredibly important. The very idea that a huge, industrial scale, hard science in modern medicine, would willingly supplicate to acceptance of language so distorting, and liable to distort perception, remains beyond me, a assault on the senses I first gained benefit my first and earliest exposure to science as a discipline.

* Beyond me, the personal devastation to loved ones, to anyone who cared for me, ever, was appalling. For only myself, I elected to end up in prison, rather than risk being committed, which would have created a probably fatal misdiagnosis that freezes me, i feel nauseous just saying this.. these people play with lives... in prison, i only found about two thirds were dumped there who probably should have been in hospital for mental health problems, and did some amateur lawyering, of which I am intensely proud, and one day want to figure out a way to encourage like efforts, because it sure ain't hard, law, only getting any legal system or judge to understand the black and white ink on paper thing, is actually hard.

* I think many of us seek the rationale and intellectual uterine safety of computing, the warm appreciation of rationality and consistency that in particular low level programming can provide. My earliest observation of a sales floor, was that mental health must be inversely proportional to the immediately available intellectual structures, and that the semantic playfulness, to be polite, of my company's sales outfit, was the obvious explanation for whiskey under desks, and regular delivery of marching powders. Sometimes this drives the more creative to create enormous works, of varying success, in creating reflexive, consistent, homogeneous systems. At least I thought that efforts such as CLOS, C++ templates, were efforts at including the world, by type inheritance, and therefore insuring a hermetic and therefore emotionally safe, environment in the editor. (But then I purchased Design Patterns, when it came out, hardback, and loved it... but i knew i may have projected this thought onto it, as much as it may be a projection now, and by no means should I expect to be able to apply my own self meta cognition into the world, not before some very careful type definition, anyhow...

*5 two school friends attained giddying heights, one Royal Colldge Psychiatry and General Medical Council (one of the boards anyway), the other a worldwide veep for a major pharma, having a psycho-pharma career taking him to that position. Neither will;speak of their experiences, both quit from such great heights, i sense about the moment their family was financially secure. One works with startups now, and I wish I could give my bottom of lunch box adoring endorsement, but both are privacy intense, for indisputably valid, obvious, reasons..

Re: Can sleep deprivation cure depression?

#159

> Most people’s natural cycle is somewhat longer than the 24-hour solar day, which means that, left to our own devices, we would get quickly get out of sync with the external world. I've always had very bad issues sleeping and waking "on time." In school this led to me regularly missing class and eventually dropping school entirely, and with regular work schedules I hardly ever got good sleep. A little while ago, I m…

Hah that's interesting almost the exact same thing happens to me if I allow myself desired rather than scheduled sleep. In a way though I wish my natural cycle was closer to the typical 9-5. I found it easy to be isolated or depressed on the days when your waking life is so different than everyone elses.

I've found it somewhat easy to feel very isolated in the same way. A week of freelance work at hours when pretty much the whole of the country is asleep takes some getting used to.

I recommend finding some Discord or IRC servers with like-minded individuals that may operate in other timezones, if that interests you. It's always the middle of the day somewhere, and I find that just having that communication available—even if I'm not looking at it or using it—really helps me feel connected and not so isolated.

Re: Can sleep deprivation cure depression?

#160
post #142

> Most people’s natural cycle is somewhat longer than the 24-hour solar day, which means that, left to our own devices, we would get quickly get out of sync with the external world. I've always had very bad issues sleeping and waking "on time." In school this led to me regularly missing class and eventually dropping school entirely, and with regular work schedules I hardly ever got good sleep. A little while ago, I m…

Same here, my schedule rotates and it's the only way I stay sane. For example, today I sleep at 6pm and wakeup at 2am. Jobs and relationships are hard tho, how do you deal with relationships especially?

I'm lucky to have a client whose expectation is that daily tasks are completed by 5pm. When I tried to keep a daytime schedule this was very, very hard for me to do. Now however, I'm able to consistently feel rested and alert each day and I work during my productive hours. If my productive hours are after 5pm, chances are I'm working on my tasks for the next day.

It's possible to communicate this with new clients and set expectations for availability and productive hours, but it obviously wouldn't work for every client or every kind of work. I'd set the expectation from the beginning—this is how I work, and this is how I'll ensure that communication does not break down on weeks when I'm keeping odd hours. If the client is happy with the flow of communication and the work, it shouldn't matter what time of day you're working.

I'm even interested in exploring what kind of opportunities this opens up that normally would not be available, like doing contract work for multi-national companies or finding international clients. It's not something I've looked into much but I'm very interested in.

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